Administrator's Introduction: The Greek philosopher Epictetus believed that only the educated are free. With that in mind, BrainCrave.com is more than just bringing people together for dating - it's about helping each other grow our minds... it's about discussing our deep thoughts on topics that matter to our members. Though many of us would rather have a tooth pulled without novacaine, there's no getting away from a topic for which we are all profoundly impacted on a daily basis - politics. Ergo, being educated in political thought, even with thoughts with which we don't agree, matters.
George Orwell once said that "to see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." There's also an adage: lies need the support of government, truth can stand on its own. We needn't look any further on the veracity of these statements than the recent breaking news about the global warming conspiracy to commit fraud that even the mainstream media is now acknowledging (e.g., CBS News: Congress May Probe Leaked Global Warming E-Mails, Wall Street Journal: Settled Science? Computer hackers reveal corruption behind the global-warming "consensus."). What now appears to be clearly falsified data and conclusions, many of us once took as the gospel truth from our so-called "leaders." We gave the political class power through our support and sanction based on what they told us. Now we know their ideas and promises were based on fraud. Yet they still retain the power we gave them. Will we ever be able to take back that power once we give it away?
A demagogue is defined as "a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power." BrainCrave member AnaVictoria has a passion for this topic. She lives in a country that is ruled by dictator Hugo Chávez, a demagogue if there ever was one. In so many ways, his policies and ideology have destroyed Venezuela, a country currently rationing water and electricity as just a few examples. Why do individuals allow this to happen? Why do individuals allow Hitler to do what he did? Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Well, AnaVictoria is doing something about it by engaging us with her own thoughts.
The following article was used for a discussion [discussion text] she led on November 30, 2009 in Second Life, a free 3D virtual world.
The subject of demagoguery is such an extended one it could very well make for post graduate studies or, at the least, a very thick treatise. I, by no means, claim to be an expert or scholar of the subject. I am an engineer, not a politologist. However, as a concerned and politically neutral citizen of a country I have witnessed deteriorate in the past 9 or 10 years due to populism, I would like to discuss and possibly record what it is that weakens and deteriorates a democracy, what pollutes it, what allows the rise of demagogues to power, and what the warning signs and symptoms are, if any. Recognizing the rise of demagoguery before it has consolidated its hold on power is important if the benefits of true democracy are to be harvested.
When researching the subject, one thing made itself evident. Every dictionary offers two definitions of demagogue and demagoguery: one somewhat more benevolent, naive or, perhaps, lukewarm than the other, depending on who applies which. For the sake of fairness, I will include both definitions, though, as will soon be evident, the subject of this essay or the specific persons it targets may find one definition convenient and the other subject to further discussion.
...a failing democracy becomes a petri dish of sorts for demagoguery
The Oxford English dictionary's first definition of a demagogue is "a political leader who appeals to popular desires and prejudices."
The first definition of a demagogue that Merriam-Webster dictionary offers is "a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power."
In the Spanish language, the most authoritative source (the Diccionario de la Real Academia de la Lengua Española) defines demagoguery as "Degeneration of democracy, which politicians, through concessions and praise to the elementary feelings of citizens, seek to achieve or maintain power."
However, as said before, there are usually two definitions:
The Oxford dictionary's second definition states that a demagogue was "(in ancient Greece and Rome) an orator who supported the cause of the common people."
Merriam Webster's second definition is strikingly similar: "a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times."
The dictionary of the Real Academia Española's first definition translates thus: a political practice that consists of gaining popular favor through flattery.
Aristotle and Plato were both critics of democracy. Not that they supported less tolerant or less equitable forms of government, but they were keen to pinpoint the fundamental flaws and weaknesses of democracy.
According to Aristotle and Plato, democracy has two fundamental flaws: one in the electorate and another one in elected officials. The electorate is, according to them, a beast. An essentially mindless, sometimes furious but trainable, adaptable beast. Elected officials, on the other hand, are susceptible to corruption at any level in the chain of government, such that only the elected official truly enjoy the benefits of democracy. It is a very vulnerable political system, and its greatest threats are within. It is, therefore, vulnerable to itself and from within itself. Many times demagogues are born and raised in democratic societies, although it would seem that a deteriorated or failed democracy is but one breeding ground for demagogues. History teaches us that oligarchies and monarchies are ideal cultivation media for demagogues as well. However, being a westerner fortunate enough to live in a world where most people agree democracy should be the best form of government, I will limit myself to the discussion of demagoguery in western societies. It would be very interesting to hear definitions of demagoguery from the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.
I will risk saying that the fundamental goal of any democracy is to cause as much well-being to the most people it possibly can, within geopolitical border lines. A successful democracy is one that raises the quality of life of its people, allowing the middle class (which is the founding pillar of a democracy) to flourish and creates the conditions for the greatest possible number of people in their country to become middle class. Simõn Bolivar himself expressed so when he wrote "The most perfect system of government is one that produces the greatest sum of happiness possible, the greatest amount of social security and greater amount of political stability." As said before, a failing democracy becomes a petri dish of sorts for demagoguery.
Demagoguery has many readily-recognizable signs. A demagogue will use many, if not all of the forms of deception listed below. If anyone can append any other observations to this short list, I would be happy to listen. Once more, here it would be critical to have opinions from all over the world. There is no doubt that culture would have an influence on the perception of the demagoguery phenomenon and having as many multicultural thoughts on the subject could possibly lead to a universal guide to detect symptoms of demagoguery in politics. For the moment, the following is what comes to mind:
Fallacies: Arguments that confuse and obscure logical relationships between elements, or adopt premises that are clearly unacceptable. Among them are the false cause fallacy, circular argument, the ad hominem argument, and appeal to an authority irrelevant to the case.
Manipulation of meaning: Words, beside having a denotative meaning, also possess a connotative, implicit meaning provided by context and shared knowledge of the speakers. This implicit meaning adds ideas and opinions often much more subtle and harder to be aware of than their denotative meaning. With a careful choice of words, a speech that appears to be denotatively neutral can connote additional meanings, depending on its context and its relation to the opinion of the audience, the listeners of the speech, and/or the zeitgeist of a society. This would certainly account for purposeful ambiguity designed to provide "credible deniability," a common tactic in politics. A politician will often say "that's what I said, but you misinterpreted it." Thus, the contents involved are difficult to refute.
Omissions: Incomplete information is presented to the people who the demagogue targets, excluding any problems, objections, difficulties. This results in the presentation of a distorted reality without directly engaging in lies. My father once told me something I will never forget: there are two basic ways of lying - either by not telling the truth or by conveniently omitting parts of it.
Redefinition of language: By phasing out or eliminating words that undermine their position or by attempting to modify or do away with the thinking that opposes a demagogue's arguments. Numerous examples of this can be seen in literature (George Orwell's 1984 novel is a magnificent example), but also in reality and especially in politics. A 21st century Latin-American demagogue, for example, will no longer speak of "communism" but will refer to his revolution as "socialism," although socialism in itself is a word whose mere definition is a good candidate for a potentially lengthy debate I would be happy to hear.
Dismissal tactics: This consists of diverting the discussion from a sore spot for the demagogue to a topic that dominates, or to where the demagogue presents any amount of advantage over his opponent or adversary. The demagogue will refuse to answer directly questions or challenges presented by those who oppose him.
Out-of-context statistics: This involves using numerical data to support a hypothesis or statement, but by being out of context does not reflect reality. The use of biased statistics, also known as numerical demagoguery, is another trick in the demagogue's repertoire.
Demonization: This approach is to associate an idea or group of people with negative values, until that idea or group of persons are viewed negatively.
False dilemma: Also known as a false dichotomy, this refers to a situation where two alternative views are presented as the only possible. Examples are the typical "you're with me or against me." It involves a simplistic definition of reality and, thus, avoids the consideration of other possibilities.
DISCUSS!
Original posting by AnaVictoria on Nov 28, 2009 at http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=17
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The Braincrave.com discussion group on Second Life was a twice-daily intellectual group discussions typically held at 12:00 PM SLT (PST) and 7:00 PM SLT. The discussions took place in Second Life group chat but are no longer formally scheduled or managed. The daily articles were used to encourage the discussions.
The following discussion occurred on Monday, November 30, 2009 at 6:30 PM/18:30 SLT (PST) in Second Life at Within Ten Years (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Within%20Ten%20Years/69/198/24). It is based on the article titled (Demagoguery). The BrainCrave.com group on Second Life is free to join. Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.
[18:36] BrainCrave OHare: Alright, let's begin...hi ocad
[18:36] Shwa Quijote: isn't "designed anarchy" kind of an oxymoron?
[18:36] AnaVictoria Morales: Well-designed anarchy... interesting
[18:37] BrainCrave OHare: everyone ready?
[18:37] OCADland Minotaur: Good evening
[18:37] >>> OCADland: Guten Abend
[18:37] phillip1882 Arabello: sorry we ckinda already started
[18:37] AnaVictoria Morales: Ready here : ).. Goodevening, OCAD
[18:37] BrainCrave OHare: lol phil - irst, a special thank you to Half Short for allow us to use this beautiful SIM that she designed
[18:37] AnaVictoria Morales: Yeah we jumped the gun?
[18:38] BrainCrave OHare: The Greek philosopher Epictetus believed that only the educated are free.
[18:38] Xeno Octavia: yay --half short
[18:38] BrainCrave OHare: With that in mind, BrainCrave.com is more than just bringing people together for dating - it's about helping each other grow our minds...
[18:38] BrainCrave OHare: it's about discussing our deep thoughts on topics that matter to our members.
[18:38] Xeno Octavia: nah brain --they are enslaved to thinking they kno
[18:39] phillip1882 Arabello: to a degre thats the case but you can make slaves of smart people too
[18:39] BrainCrave OHare: Though many of us would rather have a tooth pulled without novacaine, there's no getting away from a topic for which we are all profoundly impacted on a daily basis - politics.
[18:39] BrainCrave OHare: Ergo, being educated in political thought, even with thoughts with which we don't agree, matters.
[18:40] BrainCrave OHare: George Orwell once said that "to see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."
[18:40] BrainCrave OHare: There's also an adage: lies need the support of government, truth can stand on its own.
[18:40] BrainCrave OHare: We needn't look any further on the veracity of these statements than the recent breaking news about the global warming conspiracy to commit fraud that even the mainstream media is now acknowledging (e.g., http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/entry5761180.shtml, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704779704574552533758682774.html).
[18:41] BrainCrave OHare: What now appears to be clearly falsified data and conclusions, many of us once took as the gospel truth from our so-called "leaders."
[18:41] BrainCrave OHare: We gave the political class power through our support and sanction based on what they told us.
[18:41] BrainCrave OHare: Now we know their ideas and promises were based on fraud. Yet they still retain the power we gave them.
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: Will we ever be able to take back that power once we give it away?
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: A demagogue is defined as "a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power."
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: AnaVictoria Morales (http://braincrave.com/showprofile.php?id=162) has a passion for this topic.
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: She lives in a country that is ruled by dictator Hugo Chávez, a demagogue if there ever was one.
[18:43] AnaVictoria Morales: Indeed
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: In so many ways, his policies and ideology have destroyed Venezuela, a country currently rationing water and electricity as just a few examples.
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: Why do individuals allow this to happen? Why do individuals allow Hitler to do what he did?
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: Well, AnaVictoria is doing something about it by engaging us with her own thoughts.
[18:44] BrainCrave OHare: So let's start with this question: what did you think of her thoughts on the notecard (which are also posted at http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=17)?[18:44]
[18:44] BrainCrave OHare: phil - you seemed to have ome thoughts before
[18:45] phillip1882 Arabello: aright once agian i am sking would you view someone like ron paul to be a demaguge
[18:45] phillip1882 Arabello: he is appealing to poluar opinion
[18:45] Xeno Octavia: why??
[18:46] phillip1882 Arabello: the idea of limited gevernment, and libery is something many people value
[18:46] AnaVictoria Morales: But limiting government could lead to abuse by the priviledged.
[18:47] phillip1882 Arabello: i dont really see how
[18:47] Arainel Klossovsky: so the premise is no government not just limited government
[18:47] AnaVictoria Morales: Then you have oligarchy, wich leads to demagoguery sooner or later.
[18:47] Xeno Octavia: ron is not a demigog because he cant win --like most libbytears
[18:47] BrainCrave OHare: does ron paul make false claims?
[18:47] BrainCrave OHare: (part of the definition)
[18:48] phillip1882 Arabello: well, none from his perspective
[18:48] AnaVictoria Morales: It seems political history is a shift between extremes, never finding any kind of balance.
[18:48] Xeno Octavia: all cliams are false
[18:48] Arainel Klossovsky: perspective is quite broad
[18:48] BrainCrave OHare: why is that xeno?
[18:48] OCADland Minotaur: A major issue in all the senerios is the treatment of corporations as individuals ubstead of as creations of the government
[18:48] AnaVictoria Morales: True, OCAD
[18:48] Xeno Octavia: because truth depends on where u sit!!
[18:49] OCADland Minotaur: We should not confuse human and citizen rights and corporate rights
[18:49] AnaVictoria Morales: Instead of the individuals that make up a corporation being liable.
[18:49] phillip1882 Arabello: for example our government has adopted kanzenian ecomic priciples
[18:49] phillip1882 Arabello: they would call most of ron pluls ideas false
[18:49] Arainel Klossovsky: what is truth?
[18:50] Xeno Octavia: corps weould be better if could give to tru longrange [timewise] AI computers
[18:50] BrainCrave OHare: a good question arainel
[18:50] phillip1882 Arabello: fairly off topic though
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: why
[18:50] Shwa Quijote: truth is absolute
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: if you speak of what is false
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: then how can you find false
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: with no truth
[18:50] Shwa Quijote: opinions and value judgements depend on where you sit
[18:50] Xeno Octavia: i ususally would say "truth is the next lie i tell u"
[18:50] AnaVictoria Morales: Well, I don't think there could be a consensus on political truths, if such a notion exists but I wonder...
[18:51] Priya Dollinger: truth or the absense of it is very much on topic
[18:51] Shwa Quijote: lol yeah
[18:51] OCADland Minotaur: "We hold these truths to be self evident..."
[18:51] AnaVictoria Morales: It's a politician's job to produce half-baked truths, it would seem
[18:51] Shwa Quijote: politics is full of all the faulty, misleading stuff in the notecard
[18:51] Arainel Klossovsky: we need a tooth pick test like betty crocker :D
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: I'd rather think of the highest amount of social well-being, as a forefather of my country put it.
[18:52] Shwa Quijote: imo you can't get elected without a heavy dose of that stuff
[18:52] Xeno Octavia: the prob is when humans finish baking th ehalf baked
[18:52] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Politians get stuck between idealism and what happens
[18:52] Priya Dollinger: A politician's job is to secure his own position
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: Indeed.
[18:52] BrainCrave OHare: alright, so maybe the question is why do politicians lie, which ultimately leads people to believe them and fosters demagoguery?
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: Why, thugh?
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: *though
[18:52] Arainel Klossovsky: sadly there are no public servants
[18:53] Shwa Quijote: people don't want to hear the truth
[18:53] Xeno Octavia: or tell it
[18:53] Arainel Klossovsky: i disagree shwa
[18:53] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Hope is why we believe
[18:53] Arainel Klossovsky: we are people
[18:53] MargaretGrace Sapphire: I think we all seek truth
[18:53] AnaVictoria Morales: people want things fed to them in black and white, I believe... no shades of gray.
[18:53] OCADland Minotaur: There are many public servants who die everyday for their people
[18:53] MargaretGrace Sapphire: that is true
[18:53] Shwa Quijote: well... the electorate doesn't want to hear it anyway
[18:53] Xeno Octavia: ive allways made up truth as i go along
[18:54] Shwa Quijote: as evidenced by the results -.-
[18:54] BrainCrave OHare: why do people, especially those who have common sense, believe/follow demagoguery?
[18:55] MargaretGrace Sapphire: I think they follow out of the need to dream
[18:55] AnaVictoria Morales: We want to be pandered to... we are obviously lacking leadership and depending on the most infuential electoral group, we elect someone who will spoon feed us.
[18:55] Xeno Octavia: interessii n assumpt Brain
[18:55] Arainel Klossovsky: we wish to be enslaved
[18:55] Shwa Quijote: if you can control a person's information input, you can get them to do anything
[18:55] AnaVictoria Morales: Napoleon himslef seized absolute power when anarchy set in
[18:56] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Scary truthe
[18:56] Keela Latte: I believe it's because of a fundamental human weakness, and a desire to believe the best.
[18:56] Xeno Octavia: wasnt real anarchy Ana
[18:56] BrainCrave OHare: is it week to believe the best keela?
[18:56] BrainCrave OHare: weak
[18:56] AnaVictoria Morales: Would you all agree that education is the beest tool to prevent the rise of demagogues?
[18:56] Keela Latte: It's not weak to believe the best, but it is lazy to think nothing will go wrong.
[18:57] AnaVictoria Morales: *best
[18:57] BrainCrave OHare: i would ana
[18:57] phillip1882 Arabello: yes but you have to be careful what you teach
[18:57] Shwa Quijote: ana yes... education like "how to think/analyze" though
[18:57] AnaVictoria Morales: But education can be perverted or manipulated to suit a demagogue's interests.
[18:57] Xeno Octavia: no Ana educaqtun is a major source of demigogs
[18:58] BrainCrave OHare: ho so xeno?
[18:58] AnaVictoria Morales: I am witnessing it in my country. Hitler and the communists, even in cuba "indoctrinate" the young.
[18:58] Priya Dollinger: Textbooks can be written to a certain point of view
[18:58] Keela Latte: People also don't trust their own internal compass enough, they will believe what someone else tells them, there are not enough who think strongly who believe in themselves, who trust themselves.
[18:58] Xeno Octavia: thewy are idiots feeding other idiots ansddd education is the food Brain
[18:58] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Education may be saved by the arguments between the demagogues
[18:58] AnaVictoria Morales: How do we guarantee the purity of education such that no political ideology, except maybe the declaration of human rights, affects it?
[18:59] phillip1882 Arabello: for example everyone lovesabe licoln cause he freed the salves, but hte truth is he only added that to the third year into the war and only becasue support for the war wa dieing out
[18:59] BrainCrave OHare: my opinion to your question ana is that we leave it to parents to be responsible for thir children's ducation - not the state
[19:00] Shwa Quijote: local control of school districts, imo... federal control means politicians control the curriculum, local control means teachers are more likely to control it
[19:00] Xeno Octavia: ond only freed them in the places had no power over
[19:00] MargaretGrace Sapphire: AnaVictoria's question is fundamental. If that can be answered we will be safe
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: agree shwa
[19:00] phillip1882 Arabello: very much so, agree shwa
[19:00] Arainel Klossovsky: the war was not about slavery it was about states rights which helps to limit demagagury
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: well, i'm not sure we'd be safe margaret, but we'd be stronger
[19:00] AnaVictoria Morales: Maybe technical prfficiency could guarantee it. An education well-founded in science is an education well-founded in logic and self-evident truths, someone once told me.
[19:00] MargaretGrace Sapphire: True Brain
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: exactly arainel
[19:00] Keela Latte: No, one will make a diference unless each person believes they can.
[19:01] Keela Latte: I mean, no one
[19:01] Priya Dollinger: But you have to be brave to stand up for your rights
[19:01] BrainCrave OHare: so keela, does that mean that low self-esteem is causing us to believe what politicians say?
[19:01] Xeno Octavia: beliefe tho is not same as knowing
[19:01] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Does that define the leader Keela
[19:02] Keela Latte: I think that is a big part of leading the masses, who can be in control and who is follows.
[19:02] AnaVictoria Morales: hmm
[19:02] phillip1882 Arabello: i think to some degree we enjoy someone else making our decisions for us
[19:02] Keela Latte: A lot of people do.
[19:02] Shwa Quijote: lol yeah
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: i don't phil
[19:02] Xeno Octavia: anarchists dont
[19:02] AnaVictoria Morales: It's the idea behind electing officials
[19:02] Arainel Klossovsky: having knowledge , education, confidence instills a power to care for yourself and not rely on a thing or person or government to do that
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: <- anarchist
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: agree with arainel
[19:03] AnaVictoria Morales: Who was it that once said "No one who wants to hold public office should ever be allowed"?
[19:03] Shwa Quijote: amen
[19:03] MargaretGrace Sapphire: But anarchy cannot protect a nation from war since unfortunately that requires an organized response
[19:03] phillip1882 Arabello: truman i belive
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: but getting back to self-esteem, i wonder if that's why there's limited interest in caring for yourself
[19:03] Xeno Octavia: as long as we think we need govornment then we will be governed
[19:04] Xeno Octavia: if we had loverments instead we would be real
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: agree with xeno
[19:04] AnaVictoria Morales: I'd extend that...
[19:04] Arainel Klossovsky: if you have fear you will want something else to be responsible
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: lol - interesting term xeno
[19:04] Arainel Klossovsky: ie lack of confidence
[19:04] AnaVictoria Morales: As long as we don't learn to live by the golden rule, we need governments.
[19:05] Shwa Quijote: history says that people don't all choose to live that way :(
[19:05] MargaretGrace Sapphire: What tarnishes the golden rule
[19:05] Xeno Octavia: govts based in alienation but loverments in intimacy
[19:05] BrainCrave OHare: not being taught it and not seeing examples margaret
[19:05] MargaretGrace Sapphire: When to loverments become arguments
[19:06] Xeno Octavia: marge when lovers in alienated culture yes
[19:06] BrainCrave OHare: so, to the point of the golden rule, what moral obligation do we have when we see demagoguery?
[19:06] MargaretGrace Sapphire: What is the route cause of the transition
[19:06] AnaVictoria Morales: corruption, I think
[19:06] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Gentle counter point?
[19:06] Keela Latte: When a person believes in themself they can make a difference even if it's for evil, so, if it's for good, we have ssen that too.
[19:07] Xeno Octavia: do onto others as they do onto u --obverse
[19:07] Arainel Klossovsky: i think the golden rule is to do unto others as you would want them to do to you yes?
[19:07] AnaVictoria Morales: In spanish we phrase it "Don't do to others what you wouldnn't like done to yoursef"
[19:07] AnaVictoria Morales: sorry about the typos
[19:07] Arainel Klossovsky: well said ana
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: old keyboard : (
[19:08] Xeno Octavia: yes but the one i just sed is for enforcement
[19:08] Shwa Quijote: imo you're not morally obliged to go out of your way to right a wrong... it's certainly commendable, and i think you have a moral obligation to not make the world a bad place, but you need to pick your battles, and different people will pick different battles.
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: It is an important decision...
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: Do unto others kinda leads to an expectation that you'll have done back to you...
[19:08] Shwa Quijote: a doctor might choose not to fight an evil dictator so he can practice medicine unmolested, for example
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: Whereas "Don't do"...
[19:09] Xeno Octavia: expectation like that is poisonous
[19:09] AnaVictoria Morales: Indeed
[19:09] AnaVictoria Morales: Can't agree more
[19:09] BrainCrave OHare: is demagoguery always bad - are there ever cases where it can be good?
[19:10] Priya Dollinger: no
[19:10] Arainel Klossovsky: maybe temporarily but won't last
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: It's a tool. Used irresponsibly it can lead to disaster, I suppose.
[19:10] Xeno Octavia: ah bad vs good de3migogs
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: A very Machiavelian tool.
[19:10] Randi Grigorovich: hi all:)
[19:10] Shwa Quijote: the word is used in a negative context... therefore by definition it is unsavory
[19:10] BrainCrave OHare: hi randi
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: It is a loade d term too
[19:10] Randi Grigorovich: sorry i am late i was working:)
[19:10] BrainCrave OHare: no worries
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: Welcome, Randi : )
[19:11] Xeno Octavia: so we may need invent a good demigog : ))
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: thank you:)
[19:11] Shwa Quijote: if he's good people will call him a populist hero
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: am i dressed ok?
[19:12] BrainCrave OHare: so, getting back to self-esteem, if that's one of the causes to make us believe lies (i.e., people of common sense), how do we elevate the self-esteem of a world?
[19:12] Keela Latte: Evaluating that is harder on a global basis.
[19:13] Xeno Octavia: Dalai Lama laughs at western concept of self estteem
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: alright, then how do you do it on a local basis?
[19:13] Keela Latte: It has to be each individual, I think, taking responsibility for what is right.
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: do you disagree with it xeno?
[19:13] Shwa Quijote: educate them... like real how-to-have-power-over-the-world education... which brings competence, which brings confidence.
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: but if we want to encourage people keela, how do we do it?
[19:13] Arainel Klossovsky: i think one valid point is what brings esteem to one person may be different for the next
[19:14] Keela Latte: A person has to ask themselves, do I feel good about my place in the world and what I contribute to it?
[19:14] Shwa Quijote: lol xeno... true
[19:14] BrainCrave OHare: agree arainel
[19:14] Randi Grigorovich: i agree
[19:14] Arainel Klossovsky: but if there were a thot put forth to empower individuals
[19:14] Keela Latte: Yes, that's true, but each person can look inside to see their own compass.
[19:14] Arainel Klossovsky: not entities
[19:14] Xeno Octavia: self esteem in a book with psychologists has him confoundeed -----i feel self esteem often a western ego trip ---since most decide to have lo self esteem
[19:14] BrainCrave OHare: i think one of the power failures just hit ana
[19:14] Arainel Klossovsky: you are a step ahead
[19:15] BrainCrave OHare: so xeno, you don't think it's a self-esteem issue?
[19:15] Keela Latte: But the self esteem only serves to help a person stand up for what is right.
[19:15] BrainCrave OHare: if someone has common sense, why believe some of the nonsense we hear?
[19:15] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Is there a non-western concept similar to self esteem
[19:16] Arainel Klossovsky: inner peace perhaps
[19:16] BrainCrave OHare: i'm curious too margaret
[19:16] Priya Dollinger: But most people in the world are to busy just surviving than to thrive & think & fight
[19:16] Randi Grigorovich: common sense to one is idiocy to another
[19:16] MargaretGrace Sapphire: True Randi that may be why we have political parties
[19:16] Xeno Octavia: i think its a human species issue --hompo sap is an alienated species and we need evolve to a healthier intimacyte species
[19:16] BrainCrave OHare: so it sounds like there are a few definitions that might have to be worked on... truth, self-esteem, etc.
[19:17] Shwa Quijote: i think too much emphasis is given to self-esteem... i think it's important for people to achieve something in order to be given a ribbon :P
[19:17] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Inner pease seems like a stronger concept than self esteme
[19:17] Keela Latte: Perhaps courage too.
[19:17] MargaretGrace Sapphire: So does courage
[19:17] Randi Grigorovich: we creat our own reality based on our life and background . my opinion
[19:17] Arainel Klossovsky: even ifwhat is truth, what is self esteem/worth/power?
[19:17] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Self esteme can lead to selfishness
[19:17] BrainCrave OHare: so, if inner-peace helps get us there, how do we create?
[19:18] Xeno Octavia: if u are aware u kno who u are with out the crutch of self [ego] esteem
[19:18] Randi Grigorovich: so what gives peace and self esteem to one may not bring it to another:)
[19:18] BrainCrave OHare: true randi
[19:18] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Is the ego and self esteme a crutch Xeno
[19:18] BrainCrave OHare: can someone define for me what they mean by inner-peace?
[19:18] Keela Latte: The what would give the person the where-with all to stand up against evil, if it's not courage that has been backed my self esteem?
[19:19] Arainel Klossovsky: I agree randi but still the question is.. what would the world/country need to think for themselves instead of being dictated to
[19:19] Keela Latte: *by
[19:19] Xeno Octavia: yes marge
[19:19] Randi Grigorovich: ok
[19:20] phillip1882 Arabello: for inner pease i would say its a state where you are okay with oyur current condition and place i nthe world
[19:20] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Ego may be a factor that drives people in their bad attempts to control others
[19:20] Shwa Quijote: inner peace is the silencing of the conflicting voices... knowing that it's all ok
[19:20] Randi Grigorovich: what do we mean by rthinking for ourselves is the first question
[19:20] Xeno Octavia: inner peace if 'tru' is timeless and spacefless
[19:21] MargaretGrace Sapphire: I would add to Phillips definition the strength to be ok with what ever situation you are in
[19:21] MargaretGrace Sapphire: That takes courage at times
[19:21] BrainCrave OHare: i guess i'm trying to figure out that, if we assume that we agree that demagoguery is always bad and we want to do something about it, what do we do? is there a call to action? is it helping people achieve inner-peace? is it helping people build self-esteem, courage? is it educating?
[19:21] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Shwas's additions are beutiful
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: i am at peace as long as i am true to my inner code of ethis and behaviour. that is my definition of Inner peace.
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: ethics
[19:22] phillip1882 Arabello: yeah i would think education and self essteem would be the primar counters
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: i meant
[19:22] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Isnt demagoguery opisite to all that Brain suggests
[19:22] BrainCrave OHare: that makes sense randi
[19:22] Xeno Octavia: acdtually Brain most 'activists' are inherent demigogs
[19:23] BrainCrave OHare: but doesn't that mean that all activists lie?
[19:23] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Are they demigogs if driven by a selfless vision
[19:23] BrainCrave OHare: i consider myself an activist, and i don't lie
[19:23] Xeno Octavia: education is training , not learning
[19:23] Shwa Quijote: what xeno said
[19:23] Arainel Klossovsky: maybe the solution is to exile everyone who serves as a politician .. they serve one term but there is a huge price
[19:23] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Activists by definition may be extremists...I too consider myself an activitst
[19:24] Xeno Octavia: brain all people lie
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: so, arainel, if we do that, that just limits it, right?
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: which might be better than it is now
[19:24] Arainel Klossovsky: perhaps we have not placed enough burden on those who wish to govern is all i'm saying
[19:24] phillip1882 Arabello: but nto all the time
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: i don't xeno
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: i think that's right arainel - so how do we do it?
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: what steps do we take?
[19:25] Xeno Octavia: lol Brain --is that really tru??
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: it is xeno
[19:25] Xeno Octavia: self -examine
[19:25] Arainel Klossovsky: well you can take up arms and do it with violence but I am not in favor of that
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: i'm not sure that would help arainel
[19:26] Arainel Klossovsky: are you attempt to convince people one by one to think
[19:26] BrainCrave OHare: maybe if i was absolutely convinced it would make a difference, i'd be more supportive of force
[19:26] Shwa Quijote: people should do their political homework and vote when it's election time... elections are decided by a few %, when only half of eligable voters bother to vote. If the other half voted........
[19:26] Arainel Klossovsky: well Brain I am speaking globally..
[19:27] Randi Grigorovich: has any one heard of the theory that societies are living organisms and people are the cells that make up that organzm?
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: i think arainel is right - i think we need to reach out to our close circles of friends and family to help
[19:27] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Yes
[19:27] Arainel Klossovsky: but i'm not advocating violence just offering examples
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: i haven't randi
[19:27] Xeno Octavia: actually shwa elections are controlled by the owners and the dont care who wins the own them both
[19:27] Randi Grigorovich: it goes like this
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: i understand arainel
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: evey society is created given birth to by the people that compose it
[19:28] Shwa Quijote: both implies democrat/republican dynamic... it's hypothetically possable for other people to get into office
[19:28] MargaretGrace Sapphire: We are people who are like cells making up the larger society. When certain factions get too powerful they over grow like cancer
[19:28] Xeno Octavia: \actually randi that would be a kool evolutionary move but is not so now
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: the people in their self intrest do
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: what is nessascary
[19:28] BrainCrave OHare: i prefer not to think in terms of "society" - i prefer to think in terms of individuals
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: to keep their particular society
[19:29] Randi Grigorovich: healthy
[19:29] Randi Grigorovich: that is a great simplification
[19:29] Randi Grigorovich: of the theory
[19:29] Shwa Quijote: marg has a point though... humans can't live in a vacuum
[19:29] BrainCrave OHare: right marge and shwa
[19:29] MargaretGrace Sapphire: That actualy was the point Shwa
[19:30] phillip1882 Arabello: i need to head out ,b ut an interestign discussion, thank you
[19:30] Keela Latte: Bye phillip!
[19:30] Arainel Klossovsky: it isn't living in a vacuum but living strong beside one another
[19:30] Randi Grigorovich: i like thias group
[19:30] BrainCrave OHare: i appreciate you all coming and sharing; i hope that when ana comes back online when she gets her power back, you'll thank her for her article and the discussion
[19:30] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Cells are unique but they function in organs that have shared objectives and depend on the metabolic functions of each other
[19:31] Randi Grigorovich: exactly margret
[19:31] Xeno Octavia: in next species a cell nucleus is 30 indivs
[19:31] Randi Grigorovich: every thing and one in a healthy society is interdependent
[19:31] Keela Latte: Ok, so for discussion, if we are cells, what is the method of feeding and exporting waste? That would be global too, right?
[19:31] BrainCrave OHare: lol keela
[19:32] BrainCrave OHare: well, rainel had an idea...
[19:32] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Cells have orgells that do that
[19:32] Xeno Octavia: actually we indivs aren cells --not even chem compounds
[19:32] Randi Grigorovich: in ooklahoma it seems we send our waste to the senate:)
[19:32] MargaretGrace Sapphire: But it depends on the definition of waste and what is considered waste
[19:32] Keela Latte: Haha
[19:32] BrainCrave OHare: and then to the white house!
[19:32] Xeno Octavia: lol
[19:32] BrainCrave OHare: <- from chicago
[19:33] Keela Latte: Lot's of hot air!!! Of course!
[19:33] MargaretGrace Sapphire: LOL
[19:33] Randi Grigorovich: Right Brain:)
[19:33] Randi Grigorovich: Ha ha ha ha - he he he!!! =D
[19:33] Priya Dollinger: Oh let's not talk about our political history Brain - LOL
[19:33] BrainCrave OHare: don't get me started priya
[19:33] BrainCrave OHare: :)
[19:34] Priya Dollinger: We do have a rich source to draw apon for discussions
[19:34] BrainCrave OHare: ok, so i guess that concludes the hour we had; of course, you're all more than welcome to stay and discuss further
[19:34] BrainCrave OHare: and we're always looking for people to write articles to share and then lead a discussion
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