The following discussion occurred on Saturday, February 13, 2010 at 9:00 AM SLT (PST) in Second Life at Within Ten Years (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Within%20Ten%20Years/69/198/24). It is based on part 1 of Ayn Rand's novel The Fountainhead. The BrainCrave.com group on Second Life is free to join. Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.

[9:07] BrainCrave OHare: BrainCrave.com Book Club starting now. We will attempt to do this in group chat unless there is significant lag. If so, we’ll switch to local. Please join us at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Within%20Ten%20Years/69/196/24

[9:11] Ullanta Flux: ok?

[9:11] BrainCrave OHare: :)

[9:11] Tyrehl Byk: nods

[9:11] Xeno Octavia: yups

[9:11] BrainCrave OHare: today's discussion is on part 1: Peter Keating. so, do you like it so far?

[9:12] Ullanta Flux: cool thanks for patience

[9:13] BrainCrave OHare: no worries

[9:13] Xeno Octavia: lol --oh u mean the book

[9:13] Xeno Octavia: am i being heard

[9:13] Tyrehl Byk: the character or the book to this point?

[9:13] Tyrehl Byk: I haven't even seen my comment yet

[9:13] BrainCrave OHare: what do you think of howard roark so far? do you find him heroic? why or why not?

[9:13] Tyrehl Byk: Hey sol

[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: welcome sol

[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: sorry - let's switch to local please

[9:14] Ullanta Flux: don't like Petey keatie

[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: why don't you like peter ullanta?

[9:14] Tyrehl Byk: lol

[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: ah, i see already that group chat is going to be laggy, so we'll be switching to local... if anyone needs a TP, please IM me

[9:15] Xeno Octavia: or his goyle friend

[9:16] Xeno Octavia: i dont like rourk

[9:17] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, please switch to local

[9:15] Ullanta Flux: he pa rasitical

[9:15] BrainCrave OHare: what makes you think so?

[9:15] BrainCrave OHare: welcome haneru

[9:15] Haneru Qi: Thanks BC

[9:15] BrainCrave OHare: why don't you like peter's girlfriend xeno?

[9:16] Xeno Octavia: so we bak here -- yes

[9:16] BrainCrave OHare: yes xeno - sorry about that... sometimes group chat works, sometimes it doesn't

[9:16] Ullanta Flux: need howies help for everything

[9:16] BrainCrave OHare: it's a good observation ullanta

[9:17] BrainCrave OHare: what don't you like about roark xeno?

[9:17] Xeno Octavia: yah but thats part 2

[9:17] Solange Sonnenkern: ty Brain

[9:17] BrainCrave OHare: well, let's try to keep the discussion to part 1 for now

[9:18] Xeno Octavia: he's kinda brainded --caught up in his memetics

[9:18] Solange Sonnenkern: so what are we discussing about part one atm?

[9:18] Solange Sonnenkern: Peter K?

[9:18] BrainCrave OHare: yes sol

[9:18] Ullanta Flux: when part 1 end?

[9:18] BrainCrave OHare: part 1 is the peter keating chapter

[9:18] Solange Sonnenkern: kk well i found this secion of interest on pg 33

[9:19] BrainCrave OHare: about page 200 in the paperback (english version)

[9:19] BrainCrave OHare: and what was that about sol, and what did you find interesting?

[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: If you want my advice, you've made a mistake already. By asking me. By asking anyone..

[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: Never ask people. Not about your work

[9:19] BrainCrave OHare: do you agree with that sol?

[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: Don'tyou konw what you want?

[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: How cna you stand it, not to know

[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: I think this encapsulates (sp?) Peter's personality

[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: he doesn't know

[9:20] Xeno Octavia: oh u mean chapter not all 15 chaps in Part 1 of book

[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: and he is therefor not anchored

[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: floating and susceptible

[9:20] BrainCrave OHare: that's a great observation sol, and one that becomes much more important as you read the other chapters

[9:21] Solange Sonnenkern: he goes on to say

[9:21] Solange Sonnenkern: I'm never sure of myself

[9:21] BrainCrave OHare: xeno - the discussion today is up through page 200

[9:21] Solange Sonnenkern: so it is a bit black and white with Roark and Peter - a bit too much for my taste, but it does make the point

[9:21] Xeno Octavia: oh good

[9:21] Xeno Octavia: thru til part 2 of book

[9:21] BrainCrave OHare: actually sol, you will find that rand does that a lot in her books

[9:22] Solange Sonnenkern: i know ã‹¡

[9:22] BrainCrave OHare: when you read any of ayn rand's novels, no matter how much you might enjoy the drama, never forget that she's trying to communicate to you her philosophy... her moral principles. she does this through her characters. so what moral principles or values do you think roark represents and, more importantly, why?

[9:22] Solange Sonnenkern: it is a trait i often find in libertarians, particularly the anarchist breed lol

[9:22] BrainCrave OHare: :)

[9:23] Solange Sonnenkern: but...and this is just my opinion... the black and white nature is not always the best to win people over to their philosophy

[9:23] Solange Sonnenkern: a more gradual approach often works better - meeting them wehre they are

[9:23] Haneru Qi: roark = will to power, I think

[9:23] Xeno Octavia: my local libs dont like anarchals

[9:23] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean by that haneru?

[9:23] Solange Sonnenkern: roark - radical indiviualism

[9:24] BrainCrave OHare: why do you call individualism radical sol?

[9:24] Haneru Qi: rayn was transmogrifying Nietzsche into more palatable romanticisim

[9:24] Haneru Qi: ayn*

[9:24] Solange Sonnenkern: i call Roark's indiv. radical

[9:24] Tyrehl Byk: There is an unbridled ego process that emerges through the character of Roark.

[9:24] Solange Sonnenkern: (i will be skipping ahed in teh book if i say now lol)

[9:24] BrainCrave OHare: interestingly enough haneru, rand was opposed to nietzshe

[9:24] Solange Sonnenkern: yes

[9:25] BrainCrave OHare: how so tyrehl?

[9:25] Tyrehl Byk: constant self-referential thoughts.

[9:26] Ullanta Flux: nitsche concerned with influence

[9:26] BrainCrave OHare: that is a great assessment of roark - he does appear to be all about the self

[9:26] Solange Sonnenkern: the adjective "impervious" comes to mind

[9:26] Xeno Octavia: so does 'isolated'

[9:26] BrainCrave OHare: sol, what is roark impervious to?

[9:27] Haneru Qi: Rand (later) has Toohey actually quote Nietzsche's "Thus Spake..."...yet Roark seems embody the "take action" ideaology without the nihilism

[9:27] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, do you consider isolated negative?

[9:27] Solange Sonnenkern: he seems to me to represent the extreme case of a field-independent personality

[9:27] Solange Sonnenkern: it is all coming internally

[9:27] Tyrehl Byk: perspectives that do not align with his own,

[9:27] Haneru Qi: oops...forgive my skippage - I think it's all these flowers

[9:27] Xeno Octavia: not neccessarily

[9:27] Solange Sonnenkern: except for an occasional mentor

[9:27] BrainCrave OHare: what values do you think keating represents?

[9:28] Solange Sonnenkern: the exterme field -dependent personality

[9:28] Tyrehl Byk: anti-roark

[9:28] Solange Sonnenkern: every little wind blowing him this way and that

[9:28] BrainCrave OHare: exactly tyrehl

[9:28] Solange Sonnenkern: lol yes anti-roark

[9:28] BrainCrave OHare: so, in other words, you might say that keating is the alter-ego of roark?

[9:29] Xeno Octavia: he isnt a kind of man i would deal with --to empty of self tho filled with ego

[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: great desc Xeno

[9:29] BrainCrave OHare: xeno - that sounds like a contradiction though... how can you be empty of self yet filled with ego?

[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: if he had no ego, he woudl be harmless

[9:29] Tyrehl Byk: filled with ego?

[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: he's dangerous

[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: a wild canon

[9:29] BrainCrave OHare: to whom is he dangerous to sol?

[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: Roark

[9:30] Xeno Octavia: tho peter is similar but filled with SELF is real ego a costume

[9:30] Haneru Qi: well, ego out of balance with superego, maybe?

[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: original thought

[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: creativity

[9:30] BrainCrave OHare: by definition, ego means self-esteem - do you think keating has self-esteem?

[9:30] Xeno Octavia: sorru run on txt

[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: he represents most American to me

[9:30] Haneru Qi: maybe exclusively self-esteem, yes

[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: brb

[9:31] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, do you think keating has self-esteem?

[9:31] Xeno Octavia: qanswer waws -- SELF is real ego a costume

[9:32] Tyrehl Byk: ?? at Xeno

[9:32] BrainCrave OHare: how about you ullanta - do you think keating has self-esteem?

[9:32] Xeno Octavia: no he's to craven keating

[9:32] Ullanta Flux: other esteem

[9:32] BrainCrave OHare: what other esteem is there?

[9:32] Haneru Qi: good word, "craven"

[9:32] Xeno Octavia: Tyr ? ?

[9:33] Ullanta Flux: not self

[9:33] Tyrehl Byk: you said "SELF is real ego a costume

[9:33] Xeno Octavia: ge'

[9:33] BrainCrave OHare: starting on p. 61 (of the paperback version), henry cameron tried to convince roark to "compromise." what did he mean by that and why do you think he was doing it?

[9:33] Tyrehl Byk: explain please

[9:34] Xeno Octavia: Self is ur essential Being and ego is costume u have constructed andear

[9:34] Xeno Octavia: in second life this process becomes very visable

[9:34] Tyrehl Byk: there is a difference, Brain between what compromise points at and what sacrifice points at...I think Rand confused her choice of words in that sentence.

[9:35] Tyrehl Byk: Self and ego dont point at teh same things, Xeno?

[9:35] Xeno Octavia: he waws doing it to test him or scare him

[9:35] BrainCrave OHare: possibly tyrehl, though she might have actually written those words intentionally as rand clearly understood the difference between compromise and sacrifice (which she explains very clearly in atlas shrugged)

[9:36] Xeno Octavia: yes Tyr they dont

[9:36] BrainCrave OHare: i don't think that's correct xeno - cameron wasn't trying to test nor scare roark

[9:36] BrainCrave OHare: any other ideas what cameron was getting at?

[9:36] Tyrehl Byk: It was a compassionate act.

[9:37] BrainCrave OHare: would you explain that tyrehl?

[9:37] Tyrehl Byk: a confused attempt to sooth what he thought may cause Roark pain.

[9:37] Solange Sonnenkern: ii think Cameron was question his own life choices You;re too good...it's no goo wasting your life on an ideal that you'll never reach

[9:37] BrainCrave OHare: i agree with that tyrehl

[9:38] BrainCrave OHare: correct sol

[9:38] Tyrehl Byk: the pain was not in Roark, but rather Cameron's own

[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: making a torture rack for yourself

[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: yes i agree ã‹¡

[9:38] Xeno Octavia: when someone says there child has artistic talent and what shud they do --i te;ll them try breaking their fingers if they still go ahead ok if not the [keating]

[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: but i would add that all creators grapple with this

[9:38] Haneru Qi: so Cameron was encouraging realism over ideology?

[9:38] BrainCrave OHare: exactly sol - what's the point of striving to achieve an ideal if you have no chance of getting to it and everyone will be against you? in other words, cameron was suggesting that, if you hold to principles, you are going to get hurt... badly

[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: all have ideals, greater than what they can accomplish...imagination is limitless, real life is not

[9:39] Solange Sonnenkern: if he holds to his dreams, i would say

[9:39] BrainCrave OHare: i'm not sure i understand the analogy xeno

[9:39] Haneru Qi: a man's reach should exceed his grasp, then

[9:39] Solange Sonnenkern: nods

[9:40] Tyrehl Byk: as I said, Brain, he didn't realize it but he was speaking of his own pain and mistakenly extending that onto Roark who was written as impervious to pain.

[9:40] BrainCrave OHare: haneru, it might be more pragmatism that cameron was suggesting

[9:40] Solange Sonnenkern: but it takes effort for most to remain in that space

[9:40] Solange Sonnenkern: esecially with the Keating's of the world

[9:40] BrainCrave OHare: i agree with that tyrehl - psychologists call this projection

[9:40] Solange Sonnenkern: (one of the reasons I like SL- higher percentage of people going beyond the norm)

[9:41] Xeno Octavia: the analogy is i am cameron to the parent [rourk] if child wants be artist break fingers a poain being artist do child a favor cameron tellin rourk same thing

[9:41] Haneru Qi: doesn't pragmatacism sell one's ideals short a priori - which would constitute (perhaps) Rand's greatest villainy?

[9:41] BrainCrave OHare: if anything xeno, i'd suggest that cameron is trying to protect roark as he learnt from his own experiences

[9:42] BrainCrave OHare: that is correct haneru

[9:42] Solange Sonnenkern: tell us more Haneru, please

[9:42] Solange Sonnenkern: i want to understand that better

[9:42] Haneru Qi: concretizing one's ideals as an expression of humanity seems to me to be what objectivism is all about

[9:42] Solange Sonnenkern: villainy?

[9:43] Solange Sonnenkern: she is being a villian to hold the highest possible vision of humanity?

[9:43] Haneru Qi: not moulding them within the limitations of pragmatic - or popular - short-sightedness

[9:43] BrainCrave OHare: well, i'm not sure it's accurate to broadly state that about objectivism (ayn rand's formal philosophy), but it is correct to say that pragmatism shorts ideals and is inconsistent with what rand espouses

[9:44] Haneru Qi: oh no...I meant that her expression(s) of villainy would be thus displayed...her bad guys are almost always accomodating

[9:44] Haneru Qi: go-along-to-get-along = weak

[9:44] Haneru Qi: a popular concept in her time...maybe not so much anymore

[9:44] BrainCrave OHare: correct haneru - her villians (and peter keating is one of them) are pragmatic (and this is consistent in all of her novels)

[9:45] Xeno Octavia: yes snd my telling parent is to protect child

[9:45] BrainCrave OHare: do you think it was right or wrong for roark to help keating on his first design, and why? also, do you think this was even a question of morality?

[9:45] Haneru Qi: the work is the thing, right? Not how it got done, or by whom

[9:46] Solange Sonnenkern: interesting

[9:46] Haneru Qi: that's the overarching construct, as it were

[9:46] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps haneru - why do you think that?

[9:47] Haneru Qi: well...going back to the ego distinction...maybe the intent was to show that the design transcneds the creator?

[9:48] Solange Sonnenkern: i would need to re-read that section, but i wondered if Roark hoped Keating would "wake up"

[9:49] Tyrehl Byk: Perhaps this was a way to paint the relationship in a manner that would better illustrate the duality in the Roark/Anti-Roark concepts.

[9:49] Haneru Qi: trying to shake the sycophant, then

[9:49] BrainCrave OHare: that's not the way i interpreted it heneru. i think that roark was expressing his ideals in a sense (e.g., help man help himself because helping another's struggle to perfection is a good thing). however, what it also did was give keating an opportunity to continue/enrich his false sense of self

[9:50] Haneru Qi: hmmmm...I can see that

[9:51] BrainCrave OHare: and this is an interesting concept because it provides an example of what happens in one sense when we help others - even if it's an expression of our own principles, the outcome might be negative

[9:51] Xeno Octavia: : yes 'ego'is false sense of self

[9:51] BrainCrave OHare: and that is something to consider as you read the rest of the book. especially because roark later makes a statement about that (i won't tell you where) :)

[9:52] Haneru Qi: so we may inadvertantly enable humanities baser tendencies and weakness by assisting them to reach higher than their inherent limitations?

[9:52] Tyrehl Byk: You continue to draw a distinction between ego and self, Xeno. How do you know that they aren't two sides of the same coin?

[9:52] Xeno Octavia: no spoilers!!

[9:52] Haneru Qi: lol@spoilers

[9:52] BrainCrave OHare: no spoilers xeno, i promise

[9:52] Solange Sonnenkern: i think this comes down to a definition of "help"

[9:52] Solange Sonnenkern: to me, Roark was not {"helping"

[9:52] Solange Sonnenkern: he was "doing"

[9:53] Haneru Qi: by proxy?

[9:53] Tyrehl Byk: interestng!

[9:53] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, to tyrehl's point, ego=self and self=ego. you might find value in reading some more on this topi

[9:53] BrainCrave OHare: topic

[9:53] Solange Sonnenkern: this is at the heart of teaching

[9:53] Xeno Octavia: sorry Tyl --self examine --ur model of coin too dualist

[9:54] BrainCrave OHare: it's a good observation sol. the question then becomes: so where is roark's error in his logic?

[9:54] Xeno Octavia: lol Brain that is western philo BS --go east young man!!

[9:54] Solange Sonnenkern: he is not a facilator by nature

[9:54] BrainCrave OHare: starting on p. 94, roark and guy francon had an altercation when roark wouldn't do a design like francon wanted him to. it cost roark his job. do you agree or disagree with what roark did?

[9:54] Ullanta Flux: sorry will be less distracted next time bye all

[9:54] Haneru Qi: in assuming a mouse might change his stripes?

[9:54] Solange Sonnenkern: he may not be able to "teach, mentor, coach"

[9:54] BrainCrave OHare: bye ull

[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: bye Ullanta

[9:55] Tyrehl Byk: Don't know what his overhead expenses were so can't comment...

[9:55] Tyrehl Byk: lol

[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: i see this in highly competent people often

[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: haha

[9:55] BrainCrave OHare: lol

[9:55] Haneru Qi: haha

[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: there is a selflessnes that is needed to be a good teacher

[9:55] BrainCrave OHare: is that true sol? i wonder

[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: most top notch people i konw would rather spend their time learning more

[9:55] Xeno Octavia: sure no need keep 'job' not wanted i wouldnt

[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: ok selflessness is wrong word

[9:55] Haneru Qi: those who can't teach, do

[9:56] Solange Sonnenkern: generosity

[9:56] Solange Sonnenkern: i don't belive that Han :P

[9:56] Haneru Qi: I hope you're right, i fact

[9:56] Solange Sonnenkern: has really hurt education but that is a side tangent lol

[9:56] Haneru Qi: *in

[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: i will try to explain better

[9:57] BrainCrave OHare: can you imagine making the stand that roark did? knowing full-well he didn't have another job, but refusing to do the work he was told to do even though it meant not getting paid

[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: Roark has a drive to create

[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: if he spends time training others

[9:57] Xeno Octavia: there are good teachers bad teachers and great teachers ---good teachers are the worst they who keatings follow

[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: it reduces what he can create, and his vision is already fAR beyond what he knows he can do in his lifetime

[9:57] Haneru Qi: well he'd be Wynand, then

[9:57] Haneru Qi: in a way

[9:58] BrainCrave OHare: so what do you think of dominique francon?

[9:58] Tyrehl Byk: I'd do her

[9:58] Tyrehl Byk: lol

[9:58] BrainCrave OHare: lol

[9:59] Haneru Qi: statuesque

[9:59] Tyrehl Byk: is a bit of a devil

[9:59] Solange Sonnenkern: well i did something similiar to Roark once, and quit without another job...because it was clear the mgmt of hte company had some values i did not share

[9:59] Solange Sonnenkern: quit on the spot

[9:59] BrainCrave OHare: now that's sticking to your principles sol - that's a real test of integrity

[10:00] Solange Sonnenkern: nods

[10:00] Haneru Qi: that's admirable, to adhere to one's ideals, at risk

[10:00] Solange Sonnenkern: the extreme cases are easier

[10:00] Solange Sonnenkern: it's when it's grey, it can be harder to make a stand

[10:00] BrainCrave OHare: how many of us really hold to our ideals? in fact, how many of us even could define what our ideals are?

[10:01] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps its grey because we don't fully understand our ideals... i.e., what we stand for?

[10:01] Solange Sonnenkern: well the greyness i am referring to is "is it better to do some..and work an organization to a higher place...or to have none?"

[10:02] Xeno Octavia: dominique set up to b rourcs goylfren but in chap 1 part 2 she shows she's a gar

[10:02] Haneru Qi: I'll define my ideals during my thank you speech for the Nobel Lit prize, after I get this book finished

[10:02] Haneru Qi: so far I have the page numbers

[10:02] Solange Sonnenkern: smiles

[10:02] BrainCrave OHare: i'm sorry xeno - i didn't understand your comment

[10:02] BrainCrave OHare: lol haneru

[10:02] Haneru Qi: I'm up to 643, tho!

[10:02] Haneru Qi: woot

[10:02] Xeno Octavia: she's a gargoyl i sed

[10:03] Haneru Qi: a decorative rain spout?

[10:03] BrainCrave OHare: well sol, i'm not sure you're speaking of fundamental values there - you're speaking in relative terms of one choice to another

[10:03] Tyrehl Byk: That sort of mind-pattern training regarding ieals is useful, Brain but also can be a source of endless confusion.

[10:04] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps tyrehl, unless you think in terms of black-or-white :)

[10:04] Xeno Octavia: shes a image of stoopid woman in that chap --a real turn off maybe net to garboys

[10:04] Tyrehl Byk: Rand lived her life almost entirely in an either-or world. That sort of duality is what fucked up her personal life quite a bit.

[10:04] Solange Sonnenkern: lmao Xeno

[10:05] BrainCrave OHare: well, in a sense tyrehl, that's a judgment call on your part (which of course you're entitled to make). the question is: do you think rand saw it the same way? did she think her life was fucked up?

[10:05] Haneru Qi: She had a pair, though...of several things

[10:05] Haneru Qi: frontal lobes, even

[10:05] Solange Sonnenkern: hahaha

[10:05] BrainCrave OHare: she said on p. 144 that she wants perfection, or nothing. as she can't have perfection, she wants nothing. do you agree with her approach to life? is perfection an improper standard to have?

[10:05] Haneru Qi: and that's Nietzsche writ small

[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: Perfection.

[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: wow

[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: my first reaction was

[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: Perfection shifts

[10:08] Solange Sonnenkern: she is asked, "what kind of tragedy did you ahve in your childhood"?"

[10:08] Xeno Octavia: perfection is no thing --is emptiness

[10:08] BrainCrave OHare: why xeno?

[10:08] Tyrehl Byk: smiles at xeno

[10:09] Xeno Octavia: same as ego for u = pefection = emptiness Dzogchen

[10:09] Tyrehl Byk: don't even try, xeno...you're never gonna get there with words.

[10:09] Haneru Qi: perfection is the flaws

[10:09] BrainCrave OHare: lol tyrehl

[10:09] Xeno Octavia: tru perfection includes all flaws or not perfect

[10:10] Tyrehl Byk: MU!

[10:10] BrainCrave OHare: so we should all strive for second-best? third-best? fourth-best?

[10:10] Solange Sonnenkern: ã‹¡

[10:10] Xeno Octavia: no Brain just recognize we R best

[10:10] Xeno Octavia: i asm

[10:11] BrainCrave OHare: on p. 160, austen heller tells roark that he is the coldest man he's ever known, but he's also the most life-giving person he's ever known. do you think that's a contradiction? why?

[10:11] Xeno Octavia: yes Tyr mu!

[10:12] Tyrehl Byk: makes a cow sound...

[10:12] Xeno Octavia: no because i see him mainly cold

[10:12] Solange Sonnenkern: he's life-giving because he is holding ideals for others of what one can be as a human being

[10:13] BrainCrave OHare: he's doing even more than that sol - not only is he holding ideals, but he's putting them into practice... and others are benefiting from them

[10:13] Xeno Octavia: his display doesnt work for me his cold is frozen --he's very rigid

[10:13] Solange Sonnenkern: people perceive otheres who are field independent as cold ...also on page 45 "Men hate passion, any great passion"

[10:13] BrainCrave OHare: why is it considered "cold" to hold to an ideal?

[10:14] BrainCrave OHare: why is it considered rigid xeno to hold to an ideal?

[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: no bullshit

[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: he calls people on it

[10:14] Tyrehl Byk: It is a position that does not feed the ego process running in other people

[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: yes ã‹¡

[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: expressed much better lol

[10:15] Solange Sonnenkern: and others know it

[10:15] BrainCrave OHare: ergo tyrehl, if you're not feeding someone else's ego (which should be their own job/responsibility), you're considered cold?

[10:15] Xeno Octavia: i not talking bout his [or her] ideals but about his posture as a being wether his self may be rigid or not --his ego structure is

[10:15] Tyrehl Byk: the ego process that is being starved of nutrition would consider it cold, yes.

[10:15] Xeno Octavia: he has NO sense of humor

[10:16] Solange Sonnenkern: he's on a mission, xeno

[10:16] Solange Sonnenkern: i sense time is of the essence for him

[10:16] BrainCrave OHare: on p. 163, roark makes the following statement to mr. mundy: "Don't you see... [i]t's a monument you want to build, but not to yourself. Not to your own life or your own achievement. To other people. To their supremacy over you. You're not challenging that supremacy. You're immortalizing it." what principle is roark driving at here?

[10:17] Xeno Octavia: wish i had memory access but cubist hu killed in guatamala or was --sed revolutionary without sense of humor is a piece o sh

[10:17] Solange Sonnenkern: lol

[10:19] Xeno Octavia: cuban was clos ta castro --is on posters and t-shirts

[10:19] BrainCrave OHare: you can see from all of the commissions that roark has turned down that he is suffering terribly. what is he suffering for?

[10:20] Haneru Qi: obsequiousness?

[10:20] Tyrehl Byk: perhaps it was Rand's confused attempt to illustrate the supremacy of self referential values, by having Roark project those onto another person's perspective which, of course he had no knowledge and couldn't possibly know.

[10:20] Xeno Octavia: he not suffering he self-rightously enjoying

[10:20] Haneru Qi: cool, Tyrehl, though it implies a tangential depth to Rand's novels that I'm not accustomed to looking for

[10:21] Tyrehl Byk: ;)

[10:21] BrainCrave OHare: actually xeno, it appears that roark is suffering - but i think he's suffering because he's standing up for his ideals

[10:22] Xeno Octavia: he faking suffering tho deeply just like keating is faking his way

[10:22] Solange Sonnenkern: nice connection ã‹¡

[10:22] BrainCrave OHare: why do you think he's faking it?

[10:22] Solange Sonnenkern: i am not sure he feels much

[10:23] Solange Sonnenkern: so i have a hard time thinking he is feeling suffering

[10:23] Solange Sonnenkern: i sense he moves on

[10:23] BrainCrave OHare: last question: do you have any idea yet what the fountainhead refers to?

[10:23] Tyrehl Byk: It's plausible to assume that Roark was written to ever suffer. It is probably common for reader to *wish* he was suffering.

[10:23] Tyrehl Byk: ^not written

[10:24] Solange Sonnenkern: nods

[10:24] BrainCrave OHare: i think he is suffering tyrehl. in fact, when i re-read it, i can actually "feel" his pain

[10:25] Solange Sonnenkern: i would say the pain comes from teh black/white thinking

[10:25] Xeno Octavia: he is faking from ego trip of who he spossed ta b

[10:25] BrainCrave OHare: to me sol, it's is thinking in the gray that is painful - thinking in terms of black or white is better :)

[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: i know Brain

[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: depends upon what youa re trying to accomplish

[10:26] Tyrehl Byk: The word is not the thing....

[10:26] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps

[10:26] Tyrehl Byk: sigh

[10:26] Haneru Qi: gray doesn;t look gray when you contrast it with either white or black...only when it's placed in between

[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: nods

[10:26] Xeno Octavia: i thinks full color

[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: smiles ã‹¡

[10:26] BrainCrave OHare: so, no ideas on what the fountainhead is referring to?

[10:27] Tyrehl Byk: the source as Rand sees it.

[10:27] Tyrehl Byk: "source"

[10:27] BrainCrave OHare: right, but what is that source?

[10:27] Tyrehl Byk: The thing she got wrong

[10:27] Xeno Octavia: i waiting for the great sex --dont think it can come [or is it cum] in this book

[10:28] BrainCrave OHare: the sex is there xeno, but not yet :)

[10:28] Solange Sonnenkern: don't give up hope, Xeno ã‹¡

[10:28] Tyrehl Byk: goes looking in his inventory for the mechanical penis....

[10:28] Solange Sonnenkern: lol

[10:28] Xeno Octavia: deepest SELF is source --ego the BSer

[10:28] Haneru Qi: Gary Cooper was cool, though

[10:28] BrainCrave OHare: exactly xeno! well done

[10:29] Tyrehl Byk: and, Xeno, no matter how hard you look it just aint there!

[10:29] BrainCrave OHare: lol

[10:29] Xeno Octavia: : )

[10:29] BrainCrave OHare: the fountainhead is referring to man's ego, which you will understand more so as you read the rest of the book

[10:29] Tyrehl Byk: Not just that, Brain

[10:30] Tyrehl Byk: The idea that the ego is a "thing"

[10:30] Xeno Octavia: i understand man's ego as well as woman's but i understand Rigpa as well

[10:30] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean tyrehl?

[10:30] Tyrehl Byk: That is the mistake Rand made time and time again.

[10:30] Tyrehl Byk: Think of ego as a verb and not a a noun.

[10:30] Xeno Octavia: ego is constructed mostly in th 1st 5 yrs

[10:31] Xeno Octavia: with minor adjustments latert

[10:31] BrainCrave OHare: i can't see how you could tyrehl - can you use it in a sentence please?

[10:32] Xeno Octavia: i was egoing down the street?

[10:32] Tyrehl Byk: I don't point at the idea with the word "ego' but rather with the words "ego-process"

[10:32] BrainCrave OHare: lol

[10:32] Haneru Qi: brim pulled way down low

[10:32] BrainCrave OHare: but the process would have an outcome, correct? what would be the outcome of the ego-process?

[10:32] Tyrehl Byk: confusion

[10:32] BrainCrave OHare: hmmmm

[10:32] Xeno Octavia: often stoopidity

[10:32] Solange Sonnenkern: smiles

[10:33] Haneru Qi: not all processes have outcomes

[10:33] Solange Sonnenkern: nod

[10:33] Xeno Octavia: journey without an end

[10:33] BrainCrave OHare: well haeru, actions lead to reactions (newton's third law)

[10:33] Haneru Qi: songs don't have outcomes

[10:33] Haneru Qi: and the 3rd law is my LEAST favorite anyway

[10:34] BrainCrave OHare: haneru - the process of creating a song leads to the outcome of a song, correct?

[10:34] Xeno Octavia: now in quantum can have reactions lead to actions --relativity

[10:34] Tyrehl Byk: oh dear god.....The Secret!

[10:34] Haneru Qi: what does entropy have to do with heat anyway? silly newton

[10:34] BrainCrave OHare: lol

[10:35] Tyrehl Byk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm0fRKiQ7jU

[10:35] Haneru Qi: well that's a meta-process, bc...a song has a beginning, middle, end, codified structure from intro thru denoument...in every way a process

[10:35] Xeno Octavia: if ur reality can be located in 6D space time is a volume not a simplistic dimension

[10:36] Haneru Qi: but pointless.

[10:36] Haneru Qi: if only the book had been "Flatland"! sigh

[10:36] Xeno Octavia: it was

[10:36] BrainCrave OHare: ok, so with that, i think we'll close on the formal discussion, though you're all welcome to stay and continue chatting. i appreciate everyone coming out and i apologize that there were many who said they were coming but didn't make it

[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: just saw that Haneru

[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: i thought this was a nice size, Brain

[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: no apology necessary ã‹¡

[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: good sol

[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: thank you for doing this

[10:37] Haneru Qi: very cool Brain, thanks for organizing it

[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: it's my pleasure

[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: yw - actually natalia really was the organizer

[10:37] Tyrehl Byk: So when is part 2?

[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: so please do thank her

[10:37] Tyrehl Byk whispers: ã‹¡

[10:37] Xeno Octavia: yes was kool =---and we both behaved : ))

[10:38] Solange Sonnenkern: NAtalia?

[10:38] Tyrehl Byk: ooh..there are times when you don't?

[10:38] BrainCrave OHare: well, let me speak with natalia about that and i'll get back to you tyrehl. what we may want to do is do the whole rest of the book next time

[10:38] Tyrehl Byk: May we see some please?

[10:38] Tyrehl Byk whispers: ã‹¡

[10:38] BrainCrave OHare: sorry - Nathalia Schmooz... she organized this

[10:39] Solange Sonnenkern: thanks ã‹¡

[10:39] BrainCrave OHare: i'm sure she would appreciate an IM thanking her

[10:40] Tyrehl Byk: can do

[10:40] Haneru Qi: I'm off, thanks to you all for the enjoyably edifying diversion - ciao!

[10:40] BrainCrave OHare: thanx haneru

[10:40] Solange Sonnenkern: take Care, Han

[10:41] Tyrehl Byk: byeee

[10:41] BrainCrave OHare: cya tyrehl - thanx

[10:41] Tyrehl Byk: sure

[10:41] Xeno Octavia: yes nite all!!

[10:41] BrainCrave OHare: bye xeno

[10:41] Solange Sonnenkern: nite Xeno