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braincrave permalink
Introduction to discussion on June 20, 2011:
In Maxims for Revolutionists, George Bernard Shaw wrote about reason: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
They're sometimes called the "fringe element" - those who think and act outside the boundaries of the status quo. They are negatively referred to as extremists, radicals, unusual, or wackos. They are not the mainstream. They are generally outspoken, but not always. They often complain a lot about the current state of affairs, but there are also those who stay quiet, avoid conflict, and just do what seems best. They don't "go along to get along." They typically don't apologize for who they are. They continue thinking and doing as they feel best, regardless of what others think.
They are judged low on the social totem pole. People shy away from having relationships with them. People don't take them seriously. They are slandered. They don't "fit in." And most don't want to. They have big dreams from something different.
Contrast them with "normal" society. People who are considered normal generally don't deviate from the authoritative standard or conventional wisdom. (And if they do deviate, it's generally only in minor ways or within pre-approved limits.) They conform, getting into a regular pattern with others. They have similar values. They compromise. They reject extremes.
It is the normal people that marginalize the fringe. Why? Perhaps it's due to a rigid adherence to a petrified conventional wisdom. Perhaps it's a lack of imagination in receiving revolutionary new ideas.
Having said that, consider the world in its current state: war, corruption, economic disaster, corporations in bed with politicians, minimal civil liberties, educational progress stagnant or negative, and all of it getting worse. It's the "new normal." In many respects, our quality of life is going backwards. This state of affairs is not the result of the fringe element or revolutionary ideas. We are where we are specifically because the majority - the normal - supports it all.
Perhaps the fringe are onto something. Perhaps it's time to re-evaluate their positions.
Of course, novel ideas and outside-the-box thinking aren't limited to politics. Although the fringe element is often used within the realm of politics, the term applies in most (if not all) fields of human knowledge, such as science ("fringe scientists doing frontier science don't get a lot of respect until their data - and cause - are taken up by the mainstream"), mathematics, economics, and even art.
For example, take research. There's an adage that goes: if you know what you're doing, it isn't research. Research behaviors that often lead to being considered fringe include:
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Announcing results contradicting conventional wisdom or results
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Using methods not generally accepted as giving reliable evidence
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Working on matters considered of little interest
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Not having those credentials that result in one's work being taken more seriously
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Showing that one is unfamiliar with the methods and results of the relevant field, through sloppy or ignorant writing or research
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Announcing false results, constantly changing one's assertions, or showing a vested interest in a particular outcome, which suggests a lack of interest in the truth.
In research, exhibit these behaviors and consider yourself unfunded. Perhaps sometimes that's warranted, but is it always? Not all of these people are self-promoters or genuine quacks - some are genuine seekers.
Make no mistake: it is a daunting challenge to develop and implement new ideas outside the generally familiar which solve large problems and achieve real progress for humanity. It is a path ripe with constant failures. As Thomas Edison noted: "I speak without exaggeration when I say that I have constructed 3,000 different theories in connection with the electric light, each one of them reasonable and apparently likely to be true. Yet only in two cases did my experiments prove the truth of my theory."
As if thinking outside-the-box isn't hard enough, it becomes even more difficult and frustrating for those who go against the mainstream. In a world where majority rules, cultural values lead us to frown upon independent thought. Braincraver manydimensional has written a parable about how our cultural values have led to misinterpreting or ignoring the fringe and what it takes to struggle for another day in a spirit of defiance.
Are we misunderstanding what these "unreasonable men" want? Is the majority equipped with the proper knowledge and experience to evaluate the characteristics and values the fringe has to offer? What do you see as wrong with fringe groups? What values do the fringe bring to the table that we are missing? In what areas are you an outsider from the mainstream?
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braincrave permalink
Introduction to discussion on May 25, 2011:
First conceptualized by Descartes (the man who brought you "I think, therefore I am"), the Turing Test is used to test a computer's ability to imitate human thinking. It works like this: two humans and one computer are separated. One of the humans - the judge - engages in a conversation with the other human and with the computer (typing only). If the judge can't tell which is the computer and which is the human, the computer passes the test. One computer has managed to fool judges 25% of the time.
How far we have come in such a short time.
Consider that humans have the capacity we do because of the way our brains work. Transhumanists believe that humanity should not be limited by such biology. Computers already perform some of the same functions as the human brain so it's theoretically possible that, in the future, technology could be constructed to replicate human intelligence. Even if a computer couldn't model the human brain exactly, it's plausible to consider a computer being able to closely simulate the entire human body, including the brain. This is one of the primary goals of artificial intelligence research (aka artificial general intelligence or AGI).
Braincraver ToranNightfire has written her thoughts about how Ray Kurzweil is bringing her dreams to life. Do you share her dreams?
Do you think that advanced computer technologies could replicate human intelligence? If so, would computers then be considered conscious, self-aware, and having free will? Do you think there's anything inherent in humanity that couldn't be replicated in a computer? Can you imagine a world where our interactions with computers are so commonplace and integrated that we lose sight of the dividing line between humanity and technology? What are your religious or philosophical objections to integrating humans and technology?
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braincrave permalink
The introduction to the group chat discussion on Fed 11, 2011:
In the psychological blockbuster Fight Club, Tyler Durden says "We're consumers. We are by-products of a lifestyle obsession. Murder, crime, poverty, these things don't concern me. What concerns me are celebrity magazines, television with 500 channels, some guy's name on my underwear." When someone has a lack of experience, oftentimes he will look for an example to emulate. Of course this is especially true for children - kids look for role models so that they know how to act. For example, if a child sees other children on TV acting unintelligent or being spoiled, their behavior is more likely to be negative. And considering that "90 percent of U.S. children under age 2 and as many as 40 percent of infants under three months are regular watchers of television," we should consider the content of what our children see. How has TV changed since we were children? What standards should we use to determine if TV entertainment is getting better or worse? Is Hollywood teaching kids to be stupid or is TV just a reflection of society's direction and values?
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braincrave permalink
Just read an article today about how successful Portugal's law to decriminalize drugs has been: "Portugal has definitively won the argument about how ineffective, irrational and counter-productive is drug prohibition."
Brazil’s Latest Outbreak of Drug Gang Violence Highlights the Real Culprit: the War on Drugs
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braincrave permalink
The following discussion occurred on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 at 7:00 PM/19:00 SLT (PST) in Second Life at Library Art Gallery @ Info Islan, Info Island (17, 27, 34) (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Info%20Island/35/43/34). It is based on the article titled Starving Artists - Making Money from your Creativity. The Braincrave.com group on Second Life is free to join (http://world.secondlife.com/group/bcd74901-06b3-4760-07b3-18e07c160888). Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.
[18:58] BrainCrave OHare: In support of artists everywhere, and gathered from speaking to a few experienced artists, we will discuss suggestions for financially benefiting from your creativity.
FTA: "There are different forms of intelligence. Creativity and artistic abilities are excellent indicators of intelligence. But earning a living as an artist is difficult, especially given today’s economic issues worldwide (art is oftentimes considered a luxury item). It is also difficult for artists to get their work displayed in galleries and, if it is bought, the gallery takes a substantial portion of the purchase price."
Starving Artists - Making Money from your Creativity: http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=34
discuss.
[18:58] Jilly Zanzibar: Yesh.
[18:58] Leigh Gears: it will if i force it
[18:58] Leigh Gears: :P
[18:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: testing
[18:59] BrainCrave OHare: and, as always, lag is bad - please be patient with posts and use CTRL-up arrow if your posts are eaten
[18:59] BrainCrave OHare: a very special thank you to AmandaT Tamatzui for her help writing this article, facilitating this discussion, and providing such a lovely location for us to see her RL work while we chat. also a thank you goes out to fiona Bearsfoot who also contributed some of her experiences to this article.
[18:59] BrainCrave OHare: if you'd like to join us, we are currently meeting at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Info%20Island/17/28/34 (though the discussion will be held in group chat - not local)
[18:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: my pleasure Brain.. for this opprtunity
[19:00] Randi Grigorovich: I will be there soon
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: so, for all you artists out there, what did you think of the article?
[19:00] Randi Grigorovich: is it a mature or pg sim:)
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: mature randi
[19:00] Randi Grigorovich: okies:)
[19:00] Randi Grigorovich: will be there after work:)
[19:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)|
[19:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: sounds.. Randy
[19:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:01] BrainCrave OHare: who among you are artists in either SL or RL?
[19:01] Galia Beck: Amanda has a one-track mind
[19:01] Randi Grigorovich: I dance in sl at various clubs
[19:01] Leigh Gears: both for me
[19:01] Randi Grigorovich: :)
[19:01] Bisa Lupindo: I can draw a mean stick figure
[19:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: Both for me
[19:01] Tak Kovacs: you NOTICED her track?
[19:02] Tak Kovacs: how surprising
[19:02] AmandaT Tamatzui: Bisa. good
[19:02] Galia Beck: I'm an art lover and SL gallery manager
[19:02] AmandaT Tamatzui: Tak....
[19:02] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:02] Tak Kovacs: *whistling innocently*
[19:02] Bisa Lupindo: You know it's hard for me to track scarcasm online Amanda :P
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: galia, from an SL gallery perspective, do you find that generally you're able to pay the rent based on art sold?
[19:03] Leigh Gears: oh gosh never
[19:03] Galia Beck: I don't own a gallery, I manage this one on a voluntary basis
[19:03] Galia Beck: ... and we sell no art from here
[19:03] Galia Beck: This is a non-profit sim
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: so, basically you just do it for the fun of it?
[19:04] Galia Beck: Yes, and because i want to give back to the community
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: has anyone here (besides amanda of course) ever sold art in sl?
[19:05] Leigh Gears: yes
[19:05] BrainCrave OHare: have you found it profitable leigh?
[19:05] Leigh Gears: before I owned a full sim , yes
[19:05] Galia Beck: A full sim is very expensive to own
[19:05] BrainCrave OHare: ah, interesting. so not making enough to cover a full SIM... how do you sell it?
[19:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: Is your sim used for Art exhibition too or a personal sim?
[19:06] Leigh Gears: I have the standard search adds up, networked billboard and a huge gay following lol
[19:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: ah the Pink Dollar
[19:06] Leigh Gears: its used to show other rl and sl artists too
[19:06] Leigh Gears: and has other business on it
[19:06] Tak Kovacs: The Gay Mafia is EVERYWHERE!
[19:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: awesome Leigh
[19:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: *giggles8
[19:07] Leigh Gears: lol
[19:07] BrainCrave OHare: leigh, do you get commissions from the RL sales as well?
[19:07] Tak Kovacs: Is the full sim purchased from LL or tiered from a rental house?
[19:08] Leigh Gears: i use to show in rl galleries, but gallery owners are bad on taking commisions, so i pulled out
[19:08] Randi Grigorovich: hi all:)
[19:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: So now you sell your art based on SL?
[19:08] BrainCrave OHare: hi randi
[19:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: Hi Randi!
[19:08] Galia Beck: Hi Randi
[19:08] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean bad leigh - they take too much?
[19:08] Galia Beck: and Bisa
[19:08] Leigh Gears: i pay 107 aust dollars aweek to an estate for the sim
[19:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: Hi Bisa!
[19:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:08] Bisa Lupindo: Thank you, hellow everyone :)
[19:08] Bisa Lupindo: *hello
[19:09] Leigh Gears: 40% of sale price
[19:09] BrainCrave OHare: ok, so that's consistent with what amanda told me and what i put in the article
[19:09] Leigh Gears: is too high a comission for my tastes
[19:09] BrainCrave OHare: so you don't show in RL galleries at all anymore because of how much they take?
[19:09] Leigh Gears: tho i was selling but still too high
[19:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: So that is the asking rate iN Adelaide then?
[19:09] Leigh Gears: true
[19:10] Galia Beck: I used to manage a gallery for a photographer friend and he gave me 40% commission even tho I didn't ask for it so that must be fairly standard
[19:10] Leigh Gears: yes it was in N Adelaide lol
[19:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: I guess some of us would rather loose the 40% as long as we can sell.. BUT
[19:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: if you can do it without them good on ya!
[19:10] BrainCrave OHare: so leigh, how do you sell your RL art then?
[19:10] Leigh Gears: I have a website I sell from now
[19:10] Randi Grigorovich: I do in rl specialised announcements poetry written on demand
[19:10] Randi Grigorovich: i make some money that way
[19:10] BrainCrave OHare: one that you created, or did you use one of those art services?
[19:10] Leigh Gears: so i sell world wide not just local
[19:11] BrainCrave OHare: randi, how do you sell it? how do you advertise?
[19:11] Galia Beck: May I have your url please leigh
[19:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: Great work leigh!
[19:11] Tak Kovacs: OK...slow conversion ;) You're getting about break even vs. purchasing directly from LL on the monthly land cost
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: word of mouth
[19:11] Leigh Gears: yes its all my rl work i sell
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: people like what i do and contact me
[19:11] Manasi Goldshark: i think art sells best during art fests
[19:11] Leigh Gears: and rl is bought in here to sell
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: i am thinking of getting a web site
[19:11] BrainCrave OHare: and leigh, when you sell your art, are you selling the originals, or copies, or both?
[19:11] Leigh Gears: sl is just like a #D website
[19:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: indeed
[19:12] Manasi Goldshark: thats when the maximum people come and have a look and prolly also buy
[19:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: awesome place to show art SL\
[19:12] Leigh Gears: only original, i dont and wont mass produce
[19:12] Randi Grigorovich: I sell My poetry in sl also
[19:12] BrainCrave OHare: so randi, basically people like what the see and spread the word then?
[19:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: You shold get a web site Randi
[19:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:12] Randi Grigorovich: it is just a fun thing
[19:12] BrainCrave OHare: have you ever sold at an art fest manasi?
[19:13] Randi Grigorovich: would not know how to put one together
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: randi, in the article, there are a few links to places that will help you setup the website for free
[19:13] Randi Grigorovich: but will research it
[19:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: took me a year to do it myself. :P
[19:13] Manasi Goldshark: actually no..i havent sold art at all
[19:13] Galia Beck: We have regular live performing artists her and that brings in people who see the art and hopefully contact the artist, even though they can't buy directly here
[19:13] Randi Grigorovich: ok thank you brain
[19:13] Manasi Goldshark: but it is my guess..that theywill sell better then
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: and why do you choose not to mass-produce leigh?
[19:13] Tak Kovacs: there are a number of places that will let you "paint by numbers" (;pun intended) to create a website
[19:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:14] Leigh Gears: to me it cheapens art, all art works come as a single thought and is created a singal peace
[19:14] BrainCrave OHare: ah, ok galia - so they come to the gallery, like what they see, and then go to your website to purchase?
[19:14] Manasi Goldshark: art is generally considered elitist
[19:14] Galia Beck: They go to the artist's website
[19:15] Manasi Goldshark: most people will be put off by the dea of buying art or even get intimidated at the idea of going to buy it
[19:15] Galia Beck: Amanda has her contact details in every picture here
[19:15] Randi Grigorovich: i think i will do a web site
[19:15] Galia Beck: ... and they can also IM her directly of course
[19:15] Leigh Gears: I have a web link in my sl gallery if they wish to buy the rl work
[19:15] Randi Grigorovich: sounds fun i also do wood cuts who knows i may sell them as well
[19:15] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps leigh. i have a few friends who are still going to school for art and having a hard time making any money off the art. so they were interested in hearing about how to make the maximum amount of money from their art. i thought one way might be to put it on t-shirts, greeting cards, etc. and some of these websites in the article
[19:16] Manasi Goldshark: leigh..i have a question..how do you qualify to be an art curator?
[19:16] Leigh Gears: my rl partner does that with his photo stuff and he does well out of it
[19:16] BrainCrave OHare: so that's a good point galia - if you're selling art in SL, you should always include a notecard to your website or other contact information
[19:17] BrainCrave OHare: leigh, feel free to post the URL of your website here so that others can take a look
[19:17] Leigh Gears: Darn Manasi, I dont think of my self as a curator, I am just an artist, so I dont know hun
[19:17] Manasi Goldshark: galia is right..we al need a rl website and contact info..even on your profile
[19:17] Galia Beck: Even a well designed blog can serve as a website
[19:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: And rememebr to network!
[19:17] BrainCrave OHare: for those of you who don't know what a curator is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curator
[19:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: Havign a web site helps
[19:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:18] Manasi Goldshark: i would like to try my hand at art...but more in doing the job of a curator...and wondered how one qualifies to do that?
[19:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: Manasi...
[19:18] Galia Beck: In RL or SL?
[19:18] Manasi Goldshark: yes manada?
[19:18] Leigh Gears: darn reading the wiki says I am lol
[19:18] Manasi Goldshark: yes amanda?
[19:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: we al have a different gift.. and some curators may not create art but they make darn great curators!
[19:18] Manasi Goldshark: exactly my point amanda
[19:18] BrainCrave OHare: yes amanda, that was one of the key things that i learned from you. networking is critical if you're going to sell art. it's not enough to be a great artist - you really have to network so that people know you, learn to trust you, and get familiar with your art and capabilities
[19:19] Manasi Goldshark: oh yes
[19:19] Manasi Goldshark: have a wine and cheese event..that seems to be the de rigeur for art showings
[19:19] Manasi Goldshark: lol
[19:19] Tak Kovacs: gee...networking. Seems most ANY sales of IP requires that *chuckle*
[19:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: hahaha
[19:20] Leigh Gears: this is my site and she is being upgraded atm, but most of it is there >>>> http://www.twistingart.com/index.htm
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: thank you leigh!
[19:20] BrainCrave OHare: and tak, that's a good point. effectively, it's not enough just to learn art. to be successful, you really have to learn business to (e.g., networking, marketing)
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: would love to check it out
[19:20] Leigh Gears: me slow sorry
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: and we need to appreciate people those who help in web designs
[19:20] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, would you also post your site as well so people can view your art?
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: marketing etc
[19:20] Manasi Goldshark: yup..los ofairkissing....
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: sure
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: ty
[19:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: www.amandatomasoa.com
[19:21] Manasi Goldshark: "ullo daaahling...looong time not seen you?"
[19:21] Galia Beck: Don't be backward at coming forward
[19:21] Tak Kovacs: are yuou sure "air" is the right three-letter prefix you were seeking?
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: I can;t stand pretentiousness
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: my weakness
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: so I tend to hide form such events
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: from
[19:21] BrainCrave OHare: leigh and galia, how do you advertise in SL?
[19:21] Galia Beck: rave parties are much more fun
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: But we artists must all learn to be able to handle such events
[19:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: like a pro
[19:22] Leigh Gears: networks, word of mouth, events at the gallery
[19:22] BrainCrave OHare: you have a rave for art??
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: folks i am weary sweet dreams:) i must go:)
[19:22] BrainCrave OHare: bye randi
[19:22] Manasi Goldshark: amanda...your work is fantastic
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: good night all:)
[19:22] Galia Beck: I advertise throught the Library groups that own these sims and also on the events pages
[19:22] Manasi Goldshark: bye rndi
[19:22] Leigh Gears: ni ni Randi
[19:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: see you Randi and thanks for coming
[19:23] Manasi Goldshark: sorry for the typos..but today am beset by big time lag
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: how do you advertise in the events pages?
[19:24] Randi Grigorovich: thank you for having me :)
[19:24] Manasi Goldshark: bye randi
[19:24] Galia Beck: Why not rave for art?
[19:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: aww thanks Manasi
[19:25] Randi Grigorovich: Bye:)
[19:25] Tak Kovacs: SL did just recently send out a survey regarding revised marketing avenues in-world (produced by LL and paid for by the marketer, of course)
[19:25] Galia Beck: Why not rave for art?( in case it didn't get thro las time)
[19:26] BrainCrave OHare: and lag strikes its mighty sword upon us!
[19:26] Manasi Goldshark: its been a pleasure speakig wth you today randi
[19:26] Leigh Gears: it;s ok Manasi, I am still waking up, typo's are good for the brain i say :P
[19:26] Galia Beck: In SL search you can advertise events
[19:26] BrainCrave OHare: eaten by lag: so leigh, you don't do any advertising like in magazines or through search?
[19:27] Manasi Goldshark: yw amanda..i only wish i could afford some of your art pieces
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: and lag strikes its mighty sword upon us!
[19:27] AmandaT Tamatzui: Does anyone think it would have been the good way to go about promoting art iN SL?
[19:27] Leigh Gears: wow that was ages ago i said that
[19:27] AmandaT Tamatzui: second Interest AG wanted to charge me USD$ 5000 for a solo art exhibition where they will also market it tot he whole commuity
[19:27] Tak Kovacs: I think though...that a viral approach would be particularly effective in SL...
[19:27] AmandaT Tamatzui: Maybe you can Manasi. WHo knows?
[19:27] Tak Kovacs: I think though...that a viral approach would be particularly effective in SL...
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: do you have a link to the survey tak?
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: for those who are able, please feel free to join us at the gallery which is showing amanda's art: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Info%20Island/18/24/34
[19:28] Manasi Goldshark: am also very sleepy today morning leigh
[19:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:28] Bisa Lupindo: I have to get going but thank you for the invite to your gallery Amanda, I hope you travel some more to get more inspiration!
[19:28] Leigh Gears: not yet i dont, have been looking at otherways of advertising
[19:28] Manasi Goldshark: lol...it messes up my brains
[19:28] BrainCrave OHare: what's second interest AH amanda?
[19:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: send me an IM
[19:29] Tak Kovacs: one moment...I'll post it.
[19:29] BrainCrave OHare: http://www.secondinterest.com/en/company.html "SECOND INTEREST AG Virtual Business Solutions is your premium virtual worlds agency. We deliver content design, business development and technical solutions across a variety of platforms, helping you to understand, assess and integrate the current change towards a 3D Internet within your online strategy. Using the powers of virtual worlds, we create for you the best business possible in an avatar-driven, multi-user-oriented web. "
[19:29] Manasi Goldshark: lol amanda..my husband gave me a budget of only no more than $200 SGD
[19:29] BrainCrave OHare: what other ways are you considering leigh?
[19:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: it is the company that created the Dresden gallery here iN SL
[19:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: singapore dollars?
[19:30] Tak Kovacs: http://secondlife.qualtrics.com/WRQualtricsSurveyEngine?Q_SS=b7QOhVlCKWEzzqQ_6xqyevqv8HxV7lq&_=1
[19:31] Tak Kovacs: It's quite possible that link is targeted to me though.
[19:31] DigitalJack Blackhawk: it is and it just thanked me for taking the survey
[19:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[19:32] Tak Kovacs: but of course ^^
[19:33] BrainCrave OHare: looks like that goes to a page that says "Thank you for taking the survey. Your response has been recorded." tak
[19:33] Tak Kovacs: Yes BrainCrave, it has recorded that the ID associated with the link has already completed the survey
[19:33] BrainCrave OHare: what is so special about the dresden gallery in SL amanda?
[19:34] BrainCrave OHare: tak gets to have all the fun
[19:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: Oh
[19:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: So would any of oyu have been willing to Pay USD$ 5000 for second Interest to help you out?
[19:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: the dresden is replica of the R thing in RL
[19:35] BrainCrave OHare: uhm... not a chance amanda? lol
[19:35] Tak Kovacs: on to fun....dinner in a box is now beeping...BBIAB
[19:35] Galia Beck: There is an alternative to having your pics on display at a big gallery and paying exorbitant fees
[19:35] Leigh Gears: hello?
[19:35] Tak Kovacs: I'll see if I can recall or find the list of questions
[19:35] BrainCrave OHare: WB leigh
[19:35] Leigh Gears: yippy lol
[19:36] Galia Beck: Rent your own small gallery, network like mad and build up your business from there
[19:36] Manasi Goldshark: lol
[19:36] Tak Kovacs: Amanda--> NO! ;)
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: I know
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: so I did not do the wrg thing by turning them down?
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:36] BrainCrave OHare: this is for dresden gallery: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Dresden%20Gallery/120/128/26
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: Just checking
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: heh heh
[19:36] BrainCrave OHare: with all the same art amanda?
[19:36] BrainCrave OHare: cya tak
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: they have Rl tours on SL
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: for students
[19:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: and professioonal tri[s
[19:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: PArdon Brain?
[19:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: dresden paid them USD $ 200,000 a year
[19:37] BrainCrave OHare: so what alternatives would you suggest galia
[19:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: to kep the eun of the place here iN SL
[19:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: accoridng to the web people I knew
[19:37] Galia Beck: Rent your own small gallery, network like mad and build up your business from there
[19:37] Manasi Goldshark: braincrave...we have a new freind interested in being a member
[19:38] Galia Beck: Start off in one of the sims devoted to art galleries
[19:38] BrainCrave OHare: so what kind of tips do you suggest or networking galia? how does one learn to network?
[19:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes do what galia suggests
[19:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:38] BrainCrave OHare: manasi, just let me know the name and i'll send an invite
[19:38] Galia Beck: Such as Avalon
[19:38] Manasi Goldshark: Gem Footman
[19:39] Galia Beck: Networking means talking to everyone you meet
[19:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: I think I iwll be wanitng that spoace there galia
[19:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:39] Galia Beck: Showing your interests and the location of your gallery in your profile
[19:40] Galia Beck: I've never yet meant anyone who doesn't want to chat with an interesting profile
[19:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes!
[19:40] Manasi Goldshark: right galia
[19:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: And being friendly genuine helps
[19:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: Galia and I met at a dance place
[19:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:40] Galia Beck: Particularly if you are an artist - people are usually interested
[19:40] Leigh Gears: I dont use chats offen, i am a voice person
[19:40] BrainCrave OHare: galia, i get lots of hits for avalon - is it avalon art district you're referring to?
[19:40] Bacon Hellershanks: Try a Linden. They're usually too busy to chat.
[19:41] Galia Beck: Yes Brain
[19:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[19:41] Leigh Gears: tame Lindens are ok,if u can catch one
[19:41] BrainCrave OHare: well galia, according to search, they have a traffic number of 8
[19:41] BrainCrave OHare: this is for avalon: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Tabula%20rasa/224/74/2
[19:41] Manasi Goldshark: folks..am going out for a bit now.be back later and rejoin discussion
[19:41] BrainCrave OHare: cya manasi
[19:41] Bacon Hellershanks: At first I thought this was brainCAVE.
[19:41] Galia Beck: That is strange, I often meet people there
[19:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: see you Manasi
[19:41] Leigh Gears: see ya soon hun
[19:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:42] Gem Footman: Hello room. I just got an invitation
[19:42] BrainCrave OHare: so galia, i think one of the things you're suggesting then is to make sure your SL profile is interesting?
[19:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: HellO gem!
[19:42] BrainCrave OHare: so that people have something to chat with you about?
[19:42] elle Pinelli: maybe about 8 people Galia? :)
[19:42] Leigh Gears: I have no idea what my traffic is at my place
[19:42] BrainCrave OHare: welcome gem
[19:42] Galia Beck: If you want people to ask questions, yes
[19:42] Gem Footman: I understand the topic is art in SL?
[19:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[19:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: gem
[19:42] Galia Beck: ... and making money Gem
[19:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: Are you an artist?
[19:43] Gem Footman: good. No..I wish I was :)
[19:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: look at cafepress.com
[19:43] Gem Footman: however I have a very close friend who is
[19:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: you can put your art on mugs, tshirts too
[19:43] Gem Footman: so I'm familiar with the problems and process
[19:43] BrainCrave OHare: that's a great idea galia. actually, on the braincrave.com website (which is a rl dating website), one of the things i help people do is improve their dating profiles. the purpose obviously is to make it more enticing for someone to contact you. seems like it makes sense to do that in SL as well
[19:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: if you want to go that way Like red bubble
[19:43] Galia Beck: I'm sure it does Brain
[19:44] Leigh Gears: I have an account with red bubble, but i havent used it in years
[19:44] BrainCrave OHare: cafepress.com is aother good one amanda for putting your art on items like clothing, etc.
[19:44] Leigh Gears: I stopped cos I dont sell prints
[19:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: Oh yes it does. And may filter the people if you ahve a good profile..
[19:44] Galia Beck: As long as you make sure that you are advertising your art and not your other assets :)
[19:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: Yes Brain I just said that. snap
[19:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: :p
[19:45] Leigh Gears: lol
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol G
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:45] BrainCrave OHare: ok, so an good point - if you want to network, you've got to upgrade your SL profiles
[19:45] BrainCrave OHare: :P @ amanda
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: trick to
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: is to have an attractive avie
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: people are still moved by visual..
[19:45] BrainCrave OHare: you mean clothing/skin-wise amanda?
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: that draws them to look at you and read your profile hus may bring you art loevrs
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:45] Gem Footman: that depends on if you're using yourself as a billboard
[19:45] Galia Beck: That helps too
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes1
[19:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: Sl is an opportunity for us to shine
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: if you go around looking like a newbie
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: chances are dim
[19:46] Gem Footman: LOL well. that's true
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: the art lovers will contact you
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: I just met a Parisian interested in taking my art to Paris]
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: it started with him being attracted to my avie
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: then my ptofile
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: and voila!
[19:46] Leigh Gears: also if where u have ur art out is not a good looking build they dont buy either
[19:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: we are connected1
[19:47] BrainCrave OHare: to your point about a billboard gem, one of the things that has been a great success in getting out the word about braincrave.com's SL group is the "intelligence is hot" tag. women who wear it seem to get asked to dance a lot (which i would have never expected). so, if you can create your own group and come up with a good tag to wear, that might help start conversations as well
[19:47] Galia Beck: Many ppl have tried to make their avis look like their RL selves coz they don't want to give a false impression but have found that they are shunned by most sl residents
[19:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes.
[19:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: heh hehe
[19:47] BrainCrave OHare: that's a great example amanda
[19:47] Gem Footman: Interesting, BrainCrave. And yes, i'd fall for the "intelligence is hot" tag
[19:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: personally I am not a surface person.
[19:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: I love people no matter how they look...
[19:48] Leigh Gears: me too
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: but let's be honest
[19:48] Galia Beck: I must try wearing it to social functions :)
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: most people choose form the look
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: cna;t avoid it
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: So why not show off our creat8ve takent
[19:48] Leigh Gears: and if u turned up to my place in rl, u would find what u can see here but with long hair
[19:48] Leigh Gears: lol
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: by making our avi an art?
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: heh hehe
[19:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:48] BrainCrave OHare: who else here is a RL or SL artist that has had experiences selling their art?
[19:49] Galia Beck: One of the nicest ppl I eve met hadn't rezzed when i started chatting and when she did I would not have spoken to her if I hadn't been chatting with her first
[19:50] Galia Beck: She looked like a low-class hooker, lol
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:50] Leigh Gears: lol
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[19:50] Gem Footman: slutwear seems to be popular
[19:50] BrainCrave OHare: similar to beefing up your profile, it probably also makes sense to read lots of profiles and try to strike up conversations with them based on what they write. that's a way to also build your network
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: remember first impressions. So to sell art we need to think like business people too
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: true Brain
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: haha gem
[19:50] Galia Beck: ... and join groups other than shopping groups :)
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: )
[19:50] Gem Footman: its like writing a resume. Many people can't do that in RL either.
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: maybe to wrg crowd
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes..
[19:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:51] DigitalJack Blackhawk: now the perfect wiseass reply to that is Galia knows the classes of hookers well :)
[19:51] BrainCrave OHare: for braincrave.com, i read thousands of profiles looking for indications of people who like to think
[19:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: visualize your potential clients..
[19:51] Leigh Gears: the biggest shock I got oneday in sl was when I had a 6500L sale of my work and then the next day a rl order visa the site
[19:51] Galia Beck: This IS SL Jack!
[19:51] Leigh Gears: same guy bought up in bothe worlds
[19:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: I know most o fmine are up and coming people.. who loves good lookign stuff.
[19:51] DigitalJack Blackhawk: I was making a joke Galia
[19:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: yeayy Leigh!
[19:51] BrainCrave OHare: that's awesome leigh
[19:52] Gem Footman: wow Leigh
[19:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: designer stuff and cheerful surorundings
[19:52] Galia Beck laughs
[19:52] Galia Beck: Fantastic Leigh
[19:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: Must check out your art Leigh
[19:52] Gem Footman: RL becons. back in a few min
[19:52] Leigh Gears: it was, cos i bought a new pc with half the money lol
[19:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[19:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: And to think I am still shy of sellign my art here iN SL for $1200l!
[19:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: I feel better already
[19:53] Leigh Gears: the sl has more showing than the site atm
[19:53] BrainCrave OHare: there's an art gallery called art meets you that has traffic of 13610: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Magnetik%20Island/110/138/22 - says it's a free place for artists
[19:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: wow
[19:54] Leigh Gears: they have events too i heard to pull in more traffic
[19:54] Galia Beck: BTW Jack, I used to live near Kings Cross in Sydney so I have seen my shar of RL hookers too, lol
[19:54] Leigh Gears: my place has 562 traffic
[19:54] BrainCrave OHare: but, interestingly enough, if you do a search in places for art gallery, not many high traffic SIMs come up for solely art
[19:54] DigitalJack Blackhawk: there was the long term project brooklyn is watching but they closed up a few months back
[19:55] DigitalJack Blackhawk: LOL Galia
[19:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: awesoem Leigh
[19:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: where are uou Leigh?
[19:55] BrainCrave OHare: so, what the traffic numbers say to me is that, even though art is so huge in SL, it's pretty disbursed and not many people traffic solely art sims
[19:55] Leigh Gears: tho not showing in art and culture, hmmm
[19:56] Leigh Gears: must look at the settings
[19:56] BrainCrave OHare: dresden gallery, which amanda said spent $200K on, only has traffic of 3755
[19:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: in a day?
[19:56] Leigh Gears: Its the downunder sim, twisting art gallery
[19:56] DigitalJack Blackhawk: well many galleries in SL have closed up in the last 4 years, poor sales & disreputable people involved with the galleries, one well known group was actually founded by someone who did it solely to steal textures of RL art
[19:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: or whole year?
[19:56] BrainCrave OHare: so, clearly, it's not the art alone that's going to bring you traffic, which is amanda's point that i make in the article
[19:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: Wo really
[19:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: grrrr
[19:57] BrainCrave OHare: i don't know how they get the traffic numbers amanda
[19:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: SO Leigh you are successful iN L.. tell us what you do
[19:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: by ebign friendly?
[19:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: ok Brain
[19:57] BrainCrave OHare: does anyone know how the traffic numbers are generated in search?
[19:57] DigitalJack Blackhawk: well now classifieds & traffic are seperate in SL, you can pay for your ad and get a high listing on classifieds, in places it is listed by traffic
[19:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thanks jack
[19:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: Maybe that was why they wanted to charge me USD $ 5,000
[19:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[19:58] Galia Beck: To pay for their advertising?
[19:58] Gem Footman: back
[19:58] BrainCrave OHare: but it's interesting, don't you think amanda, that someone pays $200K and gets almost no traffic... why would you make that kind of investment for that little return?
[19:58] DigitalJack Blackhawk: there are supposed SL "traffic gurus" that charge thru the nose I don't trust the lot of them honestly
[19:58] Leigh Gears: i am known in adelaids Amanda, so i guess so in a way
[19:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: And to create a store for me.. I am glad I met you.
[19:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[19:59] Leigh Gears: sorry phone lol
[19:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: ahhh .
[19:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[20:00] Gem Footman: what kind of art do you artists in this group do?
[20:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: TY Leigh
[20:00] Leigh Gears: I have a friend that is an artist, "Donald Roller" Wilson, he saw my site and asked how i did my work, he bought a peace and has it up in his studio
[20:00] BrainCrave OHare: so, what it sounds like is that, though it might be fun to create art in SL, it's difficult to make money in SL selling art. the real benefit would come in making RL connections, selling RL art as a result of showing SL art, and getting invited to shows based on your SL art
[20:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: According to Cai..
[20:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: curator of Criss Museum.. it is hard
[20:01] Galia Beck: I think that sums it up pretty well
[20:01] Leigh Gears: I am an abstract, horror and humor, all CGI tho most look like they r hand painted
[20:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: so best to compensate with sellign clothes or soemthing...
[20:02] Gem Footman: all of you artists...if you would send me a notcard with a LM to your art, I'd be glad to go see it. Are any of you members of the sl Art Ring?
[20:02] BrainCrave OHare: who else here is a RL or SL artist?
[20:02] DigitalJack Blackhawk: well just like RL art in SL has a history of being very cliquey(is that a word?) even joining in 2006 it was very difficult to break thru that faux barrier
[20:02] BrainCrave OHare: what's the SL art ring gem?
[20:02] AmandaT Tamatzui: Really Digital?
[20:02] Gem Footman: its like a ring on the net....You belong and someone clicks on the ring on your store and is taken to an other artist
[20:03] Gem Footman: its a way to connect and get additional traffic
[20:03] BrainCrave OHare: do you have a link gem?
[20:03] DigitalJack Blackhawk: recently it has gotten much better with the older avant guarde avatars leaving SL as a "statement" against this or that policy
[20:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: For Sl art, right?
[20:03] Gem Footman: yes, for SL
[20:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: heh hehe
[20:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[20:03] Gem Footman: my friend, Lena Anthony is a member. Contact her (give her my name if you want) and she can tell you more
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thanks Gem
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[20:04] DigitalJack Blackhawk: I consider myself an artist, regions are my canvas along with SL photography
[20:04] Gem Footman: yw
[20:04] BrainCrave OHare: found it through her profile it's called the Art Lovers Ring
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: So you are a digital artist maybe?
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[20:04] Gem Footman: that's it BrainCrave
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: Oh I had this iidea
[20:04] BrainCrave OHare: from the group charter: "Dedicated to promoting cooperation and support among the community of gallery owners showing and selling original art.
We operate the Art Lovers Gift Ring and have events to promote our member galleries.
Membership by invitation to gallery owners who want to participate in our Ring and other events, please contact Carly or Xe for information."
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: I forgot to post
[20:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: Form an art group...
[20:05] BrainCrave OHare: you mean an art group in sl amanda?
[20:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: and start buying an investment piece of art one a month between your gorup..
[20:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: and rotate the pieces
[20:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: no iN RL ...
[20:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: sorry an idea after this morn's talk
[20:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: sorry am sick iN RL so a bit fuzzy and slow. :P
[20:05] Gem Footman: :(
[20:05] Leigh Gears: because of the name of my rl gallery and sl gallery i have this up on the site >>>>>>> "No matter how TWISTED it might seem to others" ART is ART! And it might not be what you or I like but it's still art in the eyes of the creator and in the eyes of those who do enjoy it.
[20:06] BrainCrave OHare: interesting amanda - so you're buying it effectively as an investment to make money off of it in a later sale?
[20:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: and where you can;t afford to purchase an up and coming artist you can as a colelctive..
[20:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[20:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: so even you as an artist
[20:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: get togetehr some people who once'told you they loved your art
[20:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: maybe teach them more abt investment in art...
[20:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: and encourage them to group tog to invest in you or others
[20:06] BrainCrave OHare: that's an interesting idea amanda
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: that will be a start to invetsing in art too
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: alone
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: we may not be able to afford
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: toigetehr
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: we can
[20:07] Galia Beck: Sound like a good idea but would work best within your local area
[20:07] BrainCrave OHare: so basically the art rotates to each group member's house?
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: true
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: more for thos
[20:07] Gem Footman: I'd like to see a list come out of this discussion of the artists in this group, as well as the links to their galleries. Its a start to support each other
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: in eachplace to do so
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: just an idea
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: then share the art aorund
[20:07] Galia Beck: Because of the high cost of transporting art safely
[20:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: but document it carefully
[20:08] BrainCrave OHare: gem, this discussion will be posted on the braincrave.com site right after it's over - the earlier one already is posted and has links in it too
[20:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: Artists need to get more invovled in any which way
[20:08] Gem Footman: good. thank you
[20:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: so org art groups etc etc too
[20:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: Like a bbok club
[20:08] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, if you had an art group that jointly bought the art, wouldn't you have to setup a separate company that would actually own the art?
[20:08] Galia Beck: Discussions like this are very beneficial
[20:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: Maybe or a trust
[20:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: iN NZ we have trusts
[20:09] BrainCrave OHare: ah
[20:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: so no one really own the art
[20:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: yet can still benefit
[20:09] BrainCrave OHare: are there any current art students in the group?
[20:11] BrainCrave OHare: so any other thoughts or questions around art?
[20:11] Leigh Gears: :))
[20:11] Leigh Gears: oops
[20:12] BrainCrave OHare: alright. once again, my sincerest thanx to amanda for helping to write the article and facilitating the discussion, as well as to the rest of you who so actively participated. i will post the group chat log of this shortly on the article's website page
[20:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thanks everyone..
[20:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[20:13] Galia Beck: When you leave I'd be pleased if you would rate this gallery onthe sign outside
[20:13] BrainCrave OHare: i hope that you will all try to get to amanda's and leigh's galleries, as well as thank them personally for their insights
[20:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thank you everyone
[20:13] BrainCrave OHare: absolutely will do galia
[20:13] Leigh Gears: ty Amanda and BrainCrave
[20:13] Galia Beck: Thankyou
[20:13] Leigh Gears: and all others in here :))
[20:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: And Thank you galia for giving me my first SL exhibition!
[20:13] DigitalJack Blackhawk: well done Amanda
[20:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: You are my heroine
[20:13] Galia Beck: I could n't have done it without you Amanda :)
[20:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: You RL art is on the way. when I am well. :P
[20:14] Galia Beck kisses
[20:15] Galia Beck: We have a new artist exhibiting next week, a photographer named Sakura2 Kohime. I hope some of you will come to her opening rave
[20:15] Gem Footman: nice to meet you all, interesting discussion
[20:15] Galia Beck: No cheese and wine :)
[20:15] BrainCrave OHare: do you have a date galia?
[20:15] Galia Beck: Let me check
[20:16] Galia Beck: I think it's SL time Sunday 23 May at 7:00pm
[20:16] Galia Beck: no, 5:00pm
[20:16] BrainCrave OHare: at this same gallery where we are?
[20:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: Iw ished I knew you guys when I had my first opening! *wails*
[20:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[20:17] Galia Beck: Yes, upstairs
[20:17] BrainCrave OHare: for those of you who need it, this is the SLURL: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Magnetik%20Island/110/138/22
[20:17] Gem Footman: thanks
[20:17] Galia Beck: Please come and see Amanda's pics before she takes them down
[20:18] Leigh Gears: will be there soon for a look see
[20:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: I wished I rememebred to take pics at the openinhg.
[20:18] Leigh Gears: :))
[20:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: one learn form mistakes
[20:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: so if you guys ever have l openings TAKE photos!!!!
[20:18] Gem Footman: smiles
[20:18] DigitalJack Blackhawk: or video
[20:19] DigitalJack Blackhawk: machinima is often overlooked in SL
[20:33] Leigh Gears: Hi all agin, I have just exstended my Gallery and have space available for people to show their works, it's free, so drop by, have a look and if u like the area leave ur work up on the wall>>>>> http://slurl.com/secondlife/Downunder/77/174/22
[20:33] BrainCrave OHare: thanx leigh!
[20:33] BrainCrave OHare: do they do it by themselves or do they send it to you and you put it up?
[20:34] Leigh Gears: lol, ment to do that before and forgot, me so much an air head today lol
[20:34] Leigh Gears: thye can join group and just put it up
[20:34] BrainCrave OHare: k - great
[20:34] Leigh Gears: its a matire sim, so keep nudity to a minimum please
[20:34] Leigh Gears: thats all i ask
[20:34] Leigh Gears: oh no its not
[20:35] Leigh Gears: fair use of space, dont fill all the walls lol
-
braincrave permalink
The following discussion occurred on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 at 2:00 PM/14:00 SLT (PST) in Second Life at Library Art Gallery @ Info Islan, Info Island (17, 27, 34) (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Info%20Island/35/43/34). It is based on the article titled Starving Artists - Making Money from your Creativity. The Braincrave.com group on Second Life is free to join (http://world.secondlife.com/group/bcd74901-06b3-4760-07b3-18e07c160888). Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.
[14:09] BrainCrave OHare: In support of artists everywhere, and gathered from speaking to a few experienced artists, we will discuss suggestions for financially benefiting from your creativity.
FTA: "There are different forms of intelligence. Creativity and artistic abilities are excellent indicators of intelligence. But earning a living as an artist is difficult, especially given today’s economic issues worldwide (art is oftentimes considered a luxury item). It is also difficult for artists to get their work displayed in galleries and, if it is bought, the gallery takes a substantial portion of the purchase price."
Starving Artists - Making Money from your Creativity: http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=34
discuss.
[14:09] Carter Cobalt: hi everyone
[14:10] Leda Carter: *hello too
[14:10] ted Floresby: Welcome
[14:10] Leda Carter: oh ted, you are such a welcoming guy
[14:10] BrainCrave OHare: and, as always, lag is bad - please be patient with posts and use CTRL-up arrow if your posts are eaten
[14:10] BrainCrave OHare: if you'd like to join us, we are currently meeting at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Info%20Island/17/28/34 (though the discussion will be held in group chat - not local)
[14:10] BrainCrave OHare: a very special thank you to AmandaT Tamatzui for her help writing this article, facilitating this discussion, and providing such a lovely location for us to see her RL work while we chat. also a thank you goes out to fiona Bearsfoot who also contributed some of her experiences to this article.
[14:11] BrainCrave OHare: so, what did you all think of the article?
[14:11] Mathilde Vhargon: I have not had a chance to read it yet. : (
[14:13] Galea Yates: hello
[14:13] BrainCrave OHare: ah, well please do right now. amanda had some great advice for artists
[14:13] BrainCrave OHare: welcome galea
[14:13] Galea Yates: ty :)
[14:14] Clarisse Bernheim: Acording to the article about the art, that’s true that if we try to find galleries that can look for a a similar kind of art as what we do we can have more possibilities to be selected to make an echibition, but in some places this is not so easy for artist who starts. In my case, I tried to find this kind of galleries that could be interested in my art, and the majority of them asked for a very different style, after the 2 galleries that I found with asimilar style to mine, they rejected my work because they told me that they ask for people who was older or who had a “name”. In this case, would really worth to look for galleries in another placer or even countries although transport the pieces will cost money??
[14:14] Mathilde Vhargon: okay
[14:14] Mathilde Vhargon: okay
[14:15] Clarisse Bernheim: (eaten by lag) Acording to the article about the art, that’s true that if we try to find galleries that can look for a a similar kind of art as what we do we can have more possibilities to be selected to make an echibition, but in some places this is not so easy for artist who starts. In my case, I tried to find this kind of galleries that could be interested in my art, and the majority of them asked for a very different style, after the 2 galleries that I found with asimilar style to mine, they rejected my work because they told me that they ask for people who was older or who had a “name”. In this case, would really worth to look for galleries in another placer or even countries although transport the pieces will cost money??
[14:15] BrainCrave OHare: clarisse is having problems posting the following:
[14:16] Clarisse Bernheim: Acording to the article about the art, that’s true that if we try to find galleries that can look for a a similar kind of art as what we do we can have more possibilities to be selected to make an echibition, but in some places this is not so easy for artist who starts. In my case, I tried to find this kind of galleries that could be interested in my art, and the majority of them asked for a very different style, after the 2 galleries that I found with asimilar style to mine, they rejected my work because they told me that they ask for people who was older or who had a “name”. In this case, would really worth to look for galleries in another placer or even countries although transport the pieces will cost money??
[14:16] Clarisse Bernheim: Acording to the article about the art, that’s true that if we try to find galleries that can look for a a similar kind of art as what we do we can have more possibilities to be selected to make an echibition, but in some places this is not so easy for artist who starts. In my case, I tried to find this kind of galleries that could be interested in my art, and the majority of them asked for a very different style, after the 2 galleries that I found with asimilar style to mine, they rejected my work because they told me that they ask for people who was older or who had a “name”. In this case, would really worth to look for galleries in another placer or even countries although transport the pieces will cost money??
[14:17] Clarisse Bernheim: thanks brain
[14:17] Clarisse Bernheim: For me the article has been very useful to have an idea of how could I start to look for possibilities, thanks so much
[14:18] BrainCrave OHare: [14:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: You might have been approaching the established galleries... Who only wants stablished artists established in that case. you do need to do a research on the galleries. check on the artists... who they are... are they long time artists? etc.
[14:19] Clarisse Bernheim: mmmmm well, they told me that there must be persons who already had a trayectory, not people so young.
[14:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: Hello everyone
[14:20] Mathilde Vhargon: Yes, I am not an artist in RL, only started doing art in SL
[14:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: WOW! It worked
[14:20] BrainCrave OHare: sigh - damn sl
[14:20] Carter Cobalt: hi there again
[14:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: Soooo....
[14:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: Hi hi again
[14:21] Carter Cobalt: I made it !
[14:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: let's all relax .. since it is just SL.. and let's find out ways to help each other.:)
[14:21] Ernst Maven: same for me I only do art in SL
[14:21] Mathilde Vhargon: : )
[14:21] BrainCrave OHare: hello amanda. thanx again for helping with the article and facilitating here
[14:21] Sasun Steinbeck: Is this discussion more about making money from RL art, or SL art?
[14:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: No, Thank you Brain, for getting me here
[14:21] BrainCrave OHare: for those of you who only do art in SL, have you ever considered selling your art in RL?
[14:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: Both
[14:21] BrainCrave OHare: well, actually sasun, it would be both
[14:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: You can make some money both places.. we hope
[14:21] Clarisse Bernheim: so Amanda, you started moving in another places, so maybe I should try to find a place where tipically the kind of art that I do will be asked in more places, maybe.
[14:22] BrainCrave OHare: the goal is to help artists make money
[14:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: Yes Clarrisse...
[14:22] Carter Cobalt: Id like to find out how to just make it available
[14:22] Mathilde Vhargon: Well, my friend and gallery co-owner is a RL artist, and cannot be here, so I am going to share this with him, also
[14:22] BrainCrave OHare: (for those of you who are at the gallery, please do take a moment to look around at amanda's art too when you get a chance)
[14:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: YOu see.. if the galleries around you mainly deal with established artists....
[14:22] Clarisse Bernheim: m so Amanda, you started moving in another places, so maybe I should try to find a place where tipically the kind of art that I do will be asked in more places, maybe.
at the begining can be difficult but in a long time can helps
[14:22] BrainCrave OHare: mathilde, has your friend ever given you any tips that you can share?
[14:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: Then you need to scout around to seeone that has event or holds openings for emerging artists..
[14:24] Clarisse Bernheim:
(eaten by lag) so Amanda, you started moving in another places, so maybe I should try to find a place where the kind of art that I do will be asked in more places, maybe.
at the begining can be difficult but in a long time can helps
[14:24] Mathilde Vhargon: no... He has been doing art as an amateur, and I don't think he has seriously tried to sell it in the past, although it is excellent. I think this is changing for him, as his life circumstances are different now.
[14:24] AmandaT Tamatzui: By the way I will be taking some pics of us here as well
[14:24] Clarisse Bernheim: ops
[14:24] Mathilde Vhargon: Also, he and I are interested in doing all we can in SL
[14:25] BrainCrave OHare: so if your friend owns a gallery mathilde, how does he evaluate art brought in by new artists? do you happen to know?
[14:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: I am wodnering how to adress various questions
[14:25] Mathilde Vhargon: Oh, no
[14:25] Mathilde Vhargon: He and I just opened a SL gallery
[14:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: ahhh I see....
[14:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:25] Mathilde Vhargon: which at the moment we are only exhibiting our own work
[14:25] Sasun Steinbeck: I think if you have a goal for making money from art in SL you're going to be on a rather long road to frustration. You need to do it for the love of it... to share your art and join the art community here, and in time the money may come
[14:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: and you are showcasing your own work?
[14:25] Mathilde Vhargon: Sorry if I gave the wrong impression
[14:25] BrainCrave OHare: is there anyone else here who has successfully sold art either in RL or SL?
[14:26] AmandaT Tamatzui: excellent!
[14:26] Mathilde Vhargon: Well, it is not my intention to make lots of money
[14:26] AmandaT Tamatzui: I have sold art both in Rl and SL...
[14:26] BrainCrave OHare: have you tried to sell art sasun but been frustrated by it in SL?
[14:27] Mathilde Vhargon: But it would be nice if the gallery could earn a bit to help pay the tier
[14:27] Sasun Steinbeck: There are a lot of galleries in SL selling art so the "competition" can be seen as high, so if you are doing it to share your art, because it's fun, you're going to be much more satisfied :)
[14:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: I can tell you my story if it helps..?
[14:28] Mathilde Vhargon: and I would like to learn more
[14:28] Clarisse Bernheim: After the difficulties I’m having to show my art, I ask myself: Is really more important the contscts that you have that the art that you do to being accepted or recognized by the institution art when you are too young? Because I think that if nobody knows you (like in my case) is very difficult that the galleries keep confidence on your work.
[14:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: Everyone will have a different experience.. what works for some may not work for others..
[14:28] Sasun Steinbeck: sorry, chat lag galore!
[14:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: all helps.
[14:29] BrainCrave OHare: so how do commissions work for art galleries in SL?
[14:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: Clarrisse...
[14:29] Clarisse Bernheim: (eaten by lag) After the difficulties I’m having to show my art, I ask myself: Is really more important the contscts that you have that the art that you do to being accepted or recognized by the institution art when you are too young? Because I think that if nobody knows you (like in my case) is very difficult that the galleries keep confidence on your work.
[14:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: becasue you never know!
[14:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: yoour contacts... your netwokring..
[14:29] Sasun Steinbeck: sorry, chat lag galore!
[14:29] BrainCrave OHare: would love to hear it amanda
[14:29] Ernst Maven: I've sold some of my art here in SL when I sent up my own gallery and then I was discovered by a gallery manager who happened to visit my gallery. She organized my first official SL exhibition at the Mysts of Forzane.
[14:29] Sasun Steinbeck: sorry, chat lag galore!
[14:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: Do we talk abt RL first or SL?
[14:30] BrainCrave OHare: either one amanda
[14:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: Never prejudge who will buy and who wont..
[14:30] BrainCrave OHare: eaten by lag: have you tried to sell art sasun but been frustrated by it in SL?
[14:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: Okay just so wont confuse anyone
[14:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: Wonderful Ernst!
[14:30] Carter Cobalt: Ive sold in RL but not a lot, not looking for Ls here
[14:30] BrainCrave OHare: eaten by lag: so how do commissions work for art galleries in SL?
[14:31] Sasun Steinbeck: one thing I have learned is that a particular gallery may sort of get "tapped out" and it's good to just keep moving your exhibit to new places to get more exposure to new people in SL
[14:31] Sasun Steinbeck: one thing I have learned is that a particular gallery may sort of get "tapped out" and it's good to just keep moving your exhibit to new places to get more exposure to new people in SL
[14:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: galleires
[14:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: 30%
[14:31] Ernst Maven: set*
[14:31] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean by "tapped out" sasun?
[14:31] Clarisse Bernheim: mmm interesting
[14:32] Ernst Maven: I think I've been very lucky here to have been discovered so easily.
[14:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: You have!
[14:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: Galleries rents place and do the work of sending out infos
[14:32] Ernst Maven: LOL
[14:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: I just Offered tp to cai, curator of criss Art Museum
[14:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: and 70% artist
[14:32] Sasun Steinbeck: I think a particular gallery may tend to get a certain set of visitors and after a while sales seem to fizzle out. Moving to a new spot can capture a whole new set of customers that may be repeat customers to that particular spot. So it seems like whenever I move rental locations, sales pick up right away
[14:33] Mathilde Vhargon: That is a good tip, Sasun
[14:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: Sasun, in SL?
[14:33] Sasun Steinbeck: yes sorry, my only experience is SL
[14:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: There is a good art spot in SL
[14:33] BrainCrave OHare: getting back to clarisse's earlier question, don't you think it's almost as important to making contacts with people as having good art?
[14:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: Avalun district
[14:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: heard of it?
[14:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: Clarisse..
[14:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: it is important
[14:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: network
[14:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: network on various platforms
[14:34] Sasun Steinbeck: yes I have a spot there, places like Avalon that attract a lot of traffic and do a good job organizing events are great places to rent
[14:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: liek xing.com,
[14:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: I sold art through getting to know people.. being friends
[14:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: but we need to be active!
[14:34] Mathilde Vhargon: I have heard that there are some places where you can either show or sell your art free. Do you think this is of any value for the artist wanting to put a LM giver to another exhibit area, for example?
[14:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: invest in memberships to art orgs if you have to
[14:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: ryze.com
[14:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: artcad.com
[14:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: is a free siote for shwoing your art
[14:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: as is saatchi-ukgallery
[14:35] Sasun Steinbeck: I know quite a few cases of an SL exhibition resulting in an RL sale. It's a great idea to make glicee prints available in RL and make information available via a notecard giver at your exhibits how someone can order a print. You might be pleasantly surprised with a few orders! All directly as a result of an SL show
[14:36] Ernst Maven: Contacts and patronage are essential if one wants to be known in the SL art world, I believe.
[14:36] BrainCrave OHare: mathailde, can you give some examples please of places where you can show/sell your art for free?
[14:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: Clarisse...
[14:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: get networking online as well...
[14:36] Mathilde Vhargon: I don't know, I have only read that there are some... I have not yet found them.
[14:36] Clarisse Bernheim: very truth
[14:36] BrainCrave OHare: ryze.com is for business networking, correct amanda? not for artists per se?
[14:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: and then a national one
[14:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: but I pasted my art works on there
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: and sold to Greece, US..
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: joining local art gorup is best...
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: So it works
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: as our clients
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: are everyday people too
[14:37] Mathilde Vhargon: But I came to SL for other reasons, and have a network here of friends. I think this helps
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: some buyers do not know to go to art sites
[14:37] BrainCrave OHare: it looks like http://www.artcad.com/ is in french
[14:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: we miss out on the everyday people.. if we stick to art sites
[14:38] Sasun Steinbeck: SL is a great place to meet other artists from all over the world, get inspired, try some new things, experiment. Most SL artists are RL artists as well and have lots of good experience to share
[14:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: Yes
[14:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: artcad
[14:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: is a good place
[14:38] Clarisse Bernheim: wooow this is so goodç
[14:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: can be a professional way to show case your art if you can't elsewhere
[14:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: hI cai!
[14:38] BrainCrave OHare: sasun, that's a great point - you should be making notecards that go along with your art so people can buy it in RL
[14:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: Pls offer cai membership
[14:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: he is invaluable in SL
[14:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: but he crashed
[14:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:39] Clarisse Bernheim: yees this is a great idea
[14:39] Sasun Steinbeck: Yes, great idea, put them right into your prims that you sell
[14:40] Clarisse Bernheim: with the details of the SL sale and the RL sale as well
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: I just sold a piece of RL art through this SL exhibition!
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: And a man form Paris
[14:40] BrainCrave OHare: ernst, so you're point is a good one - make lots of friends in SL and then try to sell them your art, right?
[14:40] Sasun Steinbeck: awesome! Congrats :)
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: wants to \look into brining my art into RL {PAris.
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: so people
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: Sl is a powerful tool
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: TY
[14:40] Sasun Steinbeck: absolutely, it's a great way to get exposed to a big audience
[14:40] Carter Cobalt: yes it is!
[14:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: I am looking to get a gallery
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: here in SL...
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: maybe a section to help some of you?
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: WOuld love to see C;larrise;s
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: sell it via SL..
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: don;t be disheartened
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: to the Real world
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: We are in tech age
[14:41] Clarisse Bernheim: Then “ryze.com” works for art as well??
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[14:42] Carter Cobalt: Id love to ask many questions, im just starting
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: I know artists who have sold
[14:42] Sasun Steinbeck: You might consider joining the Art & Artist Network, there are frequent notices for gallery rental space posted there, as well as lots of events to attend for networking
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: but
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: I am no longer active there
[14:42] Ernst Maven: Ina Karura, a Spanish lady is, the owner of Museo Karura, is a very nice gallery manager here in SL who is always willing to help out fellow artists...
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: if you are in New zealand there is thebigidea.com
[14:42] Carter Cobalt: pitty
[14:42] Clarisse Bernheim: woow amanda this is great
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: Clarisse
[14:42] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, it's very inspiring to hear that you had art in SL that led to a sale in RL and then an exhibit in paris - shows the power, but it also requires constant effort to network and show art in SL i'm sure
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: get in touch with the SPanish lady here
[14:42] Sasun Steinbeck: Some gallery owners give out free space
[14:42] Carter Cobalt: Im in canada
[14:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: netowrk
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: she may have contacts iN RL?
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: is the answer
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: Oh yes
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: and I am glad to say
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: a store owner
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: saw my work here
[14:43] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, it would be wonderful if you do get a gallery and if you had room could display art from some braincrave.com members
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: and booked me into another Sl show iN June
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:43] Mathilde Vhargon: I am sorry, i crashed. Would it be possible to get a copy of the chat log I missed after we finish?
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: o\h yes
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: I would love to help out
[14:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: but we must be willing to promote it too
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: and I want to say...
[14:44] Clarisse Bernheim: sounds great
[14:44] BrainCrave OHare: to reiterate sasun's point, make sure to check out the Art & Artist Network group in SL if you are interested in selling art
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: soem people think anything is art if someone does it...
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: but I would suggest
[14:44] Sasun Steinbeck: That's an interesting idea. I'm part of another group call the Art Lovers Ring. Great way to promote your SL gallery, by the way. They did a group show just recently and it was very popular
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: we try to keep making our art better
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[14:44] BrainCrave OHare: thanx for the referral ernst
[14:44] Sasun Steinbeck: A braincrave.com group show would be great
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: art ring
[14:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: awesome
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes1
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:45] Ernst Maven: and so is Alanah Wildcat, the gallery manager of Angel Cmpesno d'art, another very nice person
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: of contacts here
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: might be good to get a list down...
[14:45] BrainCrave OHare: yet mathilde, i'll post the log to the article later tonight or tomorrow
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: just by being a part of this gorup
[14:45] Ernst Maven: Compenso*
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: we are networking already
[14:45] Mathilde Vhargon: Thank you, Brain
[14:45] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, thank you so much!
[14:45] Carter Cobalt: thanks
[14:45] AmandaT Tamatzui: I know of artists who paitned for 25 years and never sold a single piece
[14:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: because they did not netwpork
[14:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: YW brain
[14:46] BrainCrave OHare: sasun, do these art galleries in SL advertise through SL magazines? is that how they get people there?
[14:46] Clarisse Bernheim: Oh thanks Sasun
[14:46] Mathilde Vhargon: Well, it seems that if we don't have marketing and networking skills, then we need to get help and advice from others.
[14:46] Sasun Steinbeck: most advertising is via friends networks, their own groups, the Art & Artist Network, and other big groups like Open This End
[14:46] BrainCrave OHare: <-- all for a braincrave.com group show. sadly, i tried to get one going in my first few months in SL but wasn't able to. if anyone wants to take the lead on doing something like that, do contact me
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: I used to dream of being discovered
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: now I knwo I have to market myself
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:47] Sasun Steinbeck: also, getting on my gallery list at http://sasun.info/ArtGalleriesofSL.aspx helps bring traffic in as well
[14:47] Ernst Maven: and then FILTHY FLUNO, an awesome RL artist, owns a whole sim dedicated to the encouragement of art
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: You did, Brain?
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: ah yes
[14:47] Sasun Steinbeck: yes ideally someone that's run a group show before, it's not as easy as you might think :)
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: heard of Filthy
[14:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:47] Clarisse Bernheim: very truth Amanda
[14:47] Ernst Maven: he's a very funny guy too LOL
[14:48] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, to your point about networking, that was one of the points in the article: it's not enough for you to just be a great artist. you almost need to treat this like a business
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: I want to know him!
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes true
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: being a busienss person is hard for an artist
[14:48] Sasun Steinbeck: yes there are quite a few fantastic Art sims on the grid to explore. Just wonderful places. Artropolis is one of the best, if you haven't been there, go
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: in a review of me in NZARTmonthly
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: I was refered to as a busiensswoman
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: I fetl embarrssed
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: as if I was not an artist
[14:48] AmandaT Tamatzui: but then the reviewer
[14:49] AmandaT Tamatzui: wen to work wioth BBC London
[14:49] Sasun Steinbeck: So true AmandaT, business and art is like oil and water for most artists :)
[14:49] AmandaT Tamatzui: and Asked to buy two pieces of my art later
[14:49] BrainCrave OHare: mathilde, it's a great point you make. many people (not just artists) find it hard to network and market themselves as they weren't trained in it. perhaps it makes sense to take some courses or do some studying online into how to better network and market yourself, even (and especially) if it's not related to art
[14:49] Mathilde Vhargon: In RL, I used to be a musician. It is the same for composers of Fine Art music. Not enough time to create and also market and network, but that is what it takes.
[14:49] AmandaT Tamatzui: and confesssed to me he has been eyeong my art work but could not affors it before
[14:49] Ernst Maven: and LUCK too LOL
[14:50] BrainCrave OHare: i did amanda. sadly, the person who was building it all ran into some personal problems and so i was never able to get it off the ground
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: awwwww.
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: \sad
[14:50] Sasun Steinbeck: Yes I think that would be so helpful. Art Marketing for Dummies. LOL
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: Maybe with this group of enthusiast Brain?
[14:50] Clarisse Bernheim: yes lol
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: is there one/
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:50] Mathilde Vhargon: Well, I am guessing (though have yet to test it out) that we can also take a look at what other SL businesses are doing to keep people interested in their creations and coming back on a regular basis.
[14:50] BrainCrave OHare: yes sasun. i was completely unfamiliar with how to run a group show, which is why i was looking for help. sadly, the group was very small at the time and so i didn't have many resources to pull from
[14:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: I know a successful artists
[14:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: who mails out stuff
[14:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: and sells well
[14:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: has her own gallery too
[14:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: I think
[14:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: misixng art with gowns will be good
[14:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: I am wearing a thera Taurog
[14:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: she designs her dresses on a piece of art
[14:52] Mathilde Vhargon: : )
[14:52] Sasun Steinbeck: Brain maybe someone from the group that's done an exhibit in the past can volunteer to set one up. your first one can be a rough learning experience :)
[14:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: You must go take a look and be inspired
[14:52] Mathilde Vhargon: Yes, Fuscia does the same
[14:52] Mathilde Vhargon: It is beautiful
[14:52] BrainCrave OHare: i'm curious - do they teach any business classes when you go to art school? maybe that's a recommendation for people who are still in school - take some business classes as well to learn how to network and market
[14:52] Mathilde Vhargon: and even is giving a class for artists on how to do that
[14:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: we can go on a art journey together
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: she does?
[14:53] BrainCrave OHare: i'm open to anyone who wants to do it sasun :)
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: someday
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: I want to attend
[14:53] Clarisse Bernheim: Yes, it’s very complicated to find enought time to develope a consistent artwork when you have to keep lot of time trying to network and sell your art too, and do that well. I find this really difficult....
[14:53] Mathilde Vhargon: I believe she is giving the class at Shamen Gallery
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: teach you how to write contracts etc
[14:53] Carter Cobalt: Im in
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: But I di dnot learn it as I was busy painting.
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes they do
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: I did a year long distace class.
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: I stil passed
[14:53] Mathilde Vhargon: yes
[14:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: Mathilde
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: would be good if you can write a notecard for us
[14:54] Carter Cobalt: Im self taught.not great at all
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: pls?
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: Carter...
[14:54] BrainCrave OHare: clarisse, anything worth anything takes hard work. being an artists and just doing hard work creating art isn't enough, just as it wouldn't be with any other product or service that you provide
[14:54] Sasun Steinbeck: Mathilde, I'd love to find out more about those classes
[14:54] BrainCrave OHare: what class mathilde?
[14:54] Mathilde Vhargon: Contact Rune Shamen
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: as a self taight artists I sold more than 35 pieces of art...
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: when I said I will go take lessons
[14:54] Clarisse Bernheim: yes, of course Brain
[14:54] Mathilde Vhargon: I got the notice through their Subscribe-o-matic group
[14:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: my clients were worried
[14:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: I will become one of those who paint the same
[14:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: sorry bad typing
[14:55] BrainCrave OHare: mathilde, do you have a link or a notecard that you can give to me so that i can distribute to the group?
[14:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: Cobalt
[14:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: I would love to see your art
[14:55] Mathilde Vhargon: I will look.
[14:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: and maybe critic a bit if you want/
[14:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:55] Carter Cobalt: Id love to share it
[14:55] Mathilde Vhargon: But you can find Shamen Gallery in SL search
[14:56] Carter Cobalt: only have to learn how
[14:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: my email address.... is it safe to post it here/
[14:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[14:56] Sasun Steinbeck: ok thanks!
[14:56] BrainCrave OHare: as a plug for clarisse, she has amazing art posted on braincrave.com: http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=26
[14:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: and get a website of your art if possible people
[14:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: well done Clarisse
[14:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[14:56] Clarisse Bernheim: ohh thanks so much brain :)
[14:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: use the free oens till you can own your own
[14:56] BrainCrave OHare: (bows)
[14:56] Carter Cobalt: thank you
[14:57] Clarisse Bernheim: (eaten by lag) thanks so much brain :)
[14:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: my web site is.. www.amandatomasoa.com and my mail address is amanda@amandatomasoa.com
[14:57] Sasun Steinbeck: I need to run to my 3:00 thanks for the great discussion :)
[14:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: so if you want to post your works to me
[14:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: welcome
[14:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: not that I am such an expert
[14:57] AmandaT Tamatzui: but if I can help in anyway
[14:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: if I can I will do a wep[age'with your art
[14:58] Ernst Maven: cool thanks Amanda
[14:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: to help a bit
[14:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: so when my visitors visit my site
[14:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: they can see your art too
[14:58] BrainCrave OHare: did anyone who read the article have any personal experiences with some of the ideas presented? i'd be curious who has tried them and if you've had successes or failures
[14:58] BrainCrave OHare: bye sasun, and thanx!
[14:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: I mave fdo a page for other artists art and contact...
[14:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: on my site
[14:58] BrainCrave OHare: thanx amanda for offering the webpage. there are also links in the article for services that will do webpages for you for free
[14:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: and any hope of you getting free advertising on TV?radio?
[14:59] Clarisse Bernheim: ohh thanks Amanda, I've visited your website, and I love your work, the colours how you use them, it's great
[14:59] Mathilde Vhargon: Well, my art is mainly sculpture in SL. I find that a lot of galleries here are set up for flat wall pieces only; and it certainly doesn't show up well in photos, as it is 3D and often scripted to move, etc.
[14:59] BrainCrave OHare: if you haven't gone to amanda's site, i highly recommend it
[14:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: if you can hook up to an artists 's site with visitors it helps
[14:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: Isome people say web sites do not help sell
[14:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: but I have sold thorugh my web site
[14:59] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: I got free advert on the livign channel too
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: for paid tv
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: and sold art there
[15:00] Ernst Maven: good idea!!!
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: not much
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: but 2 -3 was good enough
[15:00] BrainCrave OHare: mathilde, are you saying that galleries typically don't do sculptures? because i know i've been in a few where they've had them
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: I have been on radio, tv etc etc
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: network
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: people
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: I get shy too
[15:00] AmandaT Tamatzui: but it is a must for us to do
[15:00] Carter Cobalt: me too
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: There are manuy International exhibitions n too now...
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: but be careful of scammers
[15:01] Mathilde Vhargon: No... I'm saying that many of the low rental spaces for artists in SL are set up basically to show wall art that is flat.
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: I have been targets
[15:01] Carter Cobalt: in SL?
[15:01] Clarisse Bernheim: (eaten by lag) I’ve visited you website Amanda and I love how you take the colour on your art work, it’s great.
[15:01] Mathilde Vhargon: My pieces are rather large, most of them.
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: RL
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: Ty Clarisse
[15:01] Mathilde Vhargon: So, it is nice for me to have my own place to show them well.
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: I would love to see your work Mathilde
[15:01] AmandaT Tamatzui: exciting
[15:02] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:02] Clarisse Bernheim: yes, ive gone and I have seen as well
[15:02] BrainCrave OHare: this was one of the key learning points for me as i worked with amanda to create the article - the business skills are very important so, though you might not like the idea of being a business person, if you want to make money from your art, you really have to be
[15:02] Mathilde Vhargon: I have done a few photo nudes, which turned out well.
[15:02] Mathilde Vhargon: Thank you very much, Amanda
[15:02] Mathilde Vhargon: I would love to have any of you come and see my work
[15:02] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean be care of scammers amanda? what do scammers do in art?
[15:02] Mathilde Vhargon: Our gallery is in my profile picks.
[15:03] Mathilde Vhargon: I will definitely check all of your profile picks and take a look at the work of everyone here.
[15:03] Ernst Maven: sorry I have to go now, the discussion was very interesting and enlightening, thanks
[15:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: for example
[15:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: the scammers\
[15:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: know how vulnerable the artists are....
[15:03] Carter Cobalt: goodbye
[15:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: so they will invite you to be part of fake exhibitions.. boook awards etc
[15:03] Ernst Maven: goodbye
[15:03] AmandaT Tamatzui: and I have been emailed
[15:04] BrainCrave OHare: bye ernst
[15:04] BrainCrave OHare: mathilde, would you post the name of your gallery here please?
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: to have two pieces of my art bought
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: form guy form Nigeria on way to Britan etc]
[15:04] Mathilde Vhargon: Of course. Thank you.
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: they even sent me American express cheques
[15:04] BrainCrave OHare: WOW amanda
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: I was excited
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: but I was smart
[15:04] Mathilde Vhargon: Two Shores Gallery. We are in the SL galleries listing that Sasun has set up, also
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: I went to the bank
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: to cash it up first
[15:04] Mathilde Vhargon: Goodbye, Ernst
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: they bank saw it'
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: felt suspicious
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: and voila they were fake cheques
[15:04] AmandaT Tamatzui: so i was safe
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: their modus operandi is
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: pay you extra
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: then ask for refund later iN reaL CASH
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: i AM NOT STUPID
[15:05] Mathilde Vhargon: Right now we are only exhibiting my work and Duke Sahara's. We hope soon to have a guest artist exhibit area added.
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: we must not be stupid
[15:05] Clarisse Bernheim: wow Amanda, and how did you know that? How can we deifference a fake exhibition? O.o
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: never send art till you get paid for sure
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:05] BrainCrave OHare: that's great advice amanda
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: Okay
[15:05] AmandaT Tamatzui: sicne I have my web site
[15:06] Clarisse Bernheim: ohh
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: and becasue I am getting known among international people...
[15:06] Clarisse Bernheim: I understand
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: I get emails form all over the world
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: inviting me to be part of their fairs...
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: important book awards
[15:06] Mathilde Vhargon: Yes, that is good advice for the sale of anything. Make sure the money is cleared and available before you deliver the goods.
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: tellign me I have been awarded this and that
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: I check
[15:06] Mathilde Vhargon: I wonder if people who sell art on Ebay do well. I have seen a lot there.
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: by googling
[15:06] AmandaT Tamatzui: and see how much stuff there is of them in RL
[15:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: if there is no track record
[15:07] AmandaT Tamatzui: probably a scam
[15:07] Carter Cobalt: I will deal with these problems if they arise
[15:07] BrainCrave OHare: that's another great point mathilde, as ebay has a bunch of protections for sellers. has anyone ever sold any art on ebay? i know i've sold other items on ebay with great success
[15:07] Carter Cobalt: Now Im just happy being here with you all.
[15:08] BrainCrave OHare: what a story amanda
[15:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: Clarisse.. there is an Italian Biennial fair
[15:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: you might want to see if you can get in
[15:08] Clarisse Bernheim: And at the time to make a price for the art, would be better to have a minimal standard based on the prices of the art that we can see outside –that are high in the most cases- ? Or simply choose to do it b hours/effort, for example? Would worth better to start?
[15:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: I was invited...
[15:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: they do have strich panel of judges
[15:08] AmandaT Tamatzui: but if you can go good
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: as an emerging artist
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: it is hard to base on hours
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: pricing is hard..
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: but we do have to do research again
[15:09] Clarisse Bernheim: (Eaten by lag) And at the time to make a price for the art, would be better to have a minimal standard based on the prices of the art that we can see outside –that are high in the most cases- ? Or simply choose to do it b hours/effort, for example? Would worth better to start?
[15:09] BrainCrave OHare: do you have the name of the italian fair amanda?
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)see what similar emerging artists's works sells for
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes..
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: let me think
[15:09] Carter Cobalt: labours in art can never be priced in hours
[15:09] AmandaT Tamatzui: Florence Biennial...
[15:10] Clarisse Bernheim: Great idea about Ebay!
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: I will have to check my notes in other computer
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: There is another one but very high calibre
[15:10] BrainCrave OHare: here are a bunch of art fairs in italy: http://karaart.com/art.fairs/italy.html
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: only established veterans seem toget to go
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: type in biennial
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: not sure how to spell it
[15:10] Mathilde Vhargon: When I was setting up a new flat and had very little money, I checked ebay for possible art pieces to decorate.
[15:10] AmandaT Tamatzui: I wish my laptop work as good as yours Brain
[15:11] BrainCrave OHare: :) amanda
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: if I am on Sl I can hardly go anywhere else
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:11] Mathilde Vhargon: I found some artists selling there.
[15:11] Clarisse Bernheim: mmm abotu the Bienal, will you go??
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: ebay?
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: Clarisse..
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: I got news form ymCanadian artist firend
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: part of my xing,com network
[15:11] Clarisse Bernheim: ohh that's great!!
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: Mona Yousseff
[15:11] BrainCrave OHare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Biennale
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: I was invited to join SL to be an art curator
[15:11] AmandaT Tamatzui: in fact
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: she is a well known artists too
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: and I was going to rope in MOna as well
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: But the costs to be part of second Interest was at least USD$ 5000 for an exhibition\
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: so I bailed out
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:12] BrainCrave OHare: what kinds of opportunities does being an art curator on SL give you to sell your art amanda?
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: well
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: when you help others
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: you get exposure too maybe
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: credibility?
[15:12] AmandaT Tamatzui: part of networking
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: Like I volunterred \
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: for James wallace Art trust
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: in NZ
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: well knowns trust
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: good for resume
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: google it
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: we do have international art events iN ZN
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:13] Mathilde Vhargon: I would guess that it helps to get to know people and let them see you are a person of integrity and that you are serious about art, doing your best work, learning, etc.
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: I will org it is people can afford to come
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[15:13] Mathilde Vhargon: I feel that is my strongest quality, as an amateur only doing art in SL
[15:13] AmandaT Tamatzui: and soem peoplel will invest in your art if they know
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: youintend to take it places
[15:14] BrainCrave OHare: Mona Youssef: http://www.mona-gallery.com/
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thanks Brain
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: you are excellent
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: I am impressed
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: you see'other non art specialist
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: sites brings you to meet art related people
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: withn those sites
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:14] AmandaT Tamatzui: there are art groups
[15:14] Mathilde Vhargon: I should add, re: Two Shores Gallery, that we are listed in Search. Sorry i don't have a slurl to post here.
[15:15] BrainCrave OHare: Wallace Arts Trust: http://www.wallaceartstrust.org.nz/
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: to those of oyu with links
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thanks
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: kisses
[15:15] Mathilde Vhargon: Or you can find me on Facebook under my name. I have link there
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: His trust will be buying a land near my h osue
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: whoppeee
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: but hey
[15:15] BrainCrave OHare: what an art curator does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curator
[15:15] Mathilde Vhargon: This is going to be good to check out all these links.
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: I am hopingmy hosue will go up in pripce.. Iiwll sell it off and be a hermit artist once again!
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: hosting braincrav exhibitions1
[15:15] AmandaT Tamatzui: hahahahaha
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: and
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: I sold art via facebook!
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: So
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: get yourself active there if you can
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: I don;t do facebook mush
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: sicne Sl
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: caused a stirr
[15:16] BrainCrave OHare: Two Shores Gallery: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Comfortably%20Numb/75/154/22
[15:16] Mathilde Vhargon: There are a lot of SL avatars listed in Facebook, also
[15:16] Mathilde Vhargon: a whole community of SL facebook people
[15:16] AmandaT Tamatzui: hmm my sentences are not coming out in proper order
[15:17] BrainCrave OHare: how do you sell art via facebook???
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: well
[15:17] Mathilde Vhargon: So you can advertise and put out notices to people on your friends list there.
[15:17] Carter Cobalt: I ther ,in face book
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: One guy form Austria
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: living iN Indonesia
[15:17] Mathilde Vhargon: and post slurls on your page.
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: was aprt of my ving.com group
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: I used tp post in there and crack the people up
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: They loved me as I was a joker
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: didn;t try to sell art at all
[15:17] Carter Cobalt: Im there in facebook*
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: but he knew me
[15:17] AmandaT Tamatzui: trusted in me
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: and asked me if i sold my art
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: I said
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: are you kididng?
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: I do
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: so he took a look
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: fell in love with my art and trusted me
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: and paid me good money fo r it
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: we need to be approachable people
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: gone are the days
[15:18] Mathilde Vhargon: That's a great story, Amanda, and I'm not surprised, based on what I've seen in FB so far
[15:18] BrainCrave OHare: it's clearly important for people to have trust in you to help sell your art. that's another interesting aspect that is, of course, similar in business
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: trying to be snotty
[15:18] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: and lay people
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: are scared of galleries
[15:19] Mathilde Vhargon: I've only been in FB a few months and already have over a hundred SL friends there, many of whom are art lovers
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: becasue of snotty people
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: good one math!
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)))
[15:19] Mathilde Vhargon: Being friendly to people on your friends list makes sense
[15:19] BrainCrave OHare: mathilde, sounds like we all need to friend you in facebook :)
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: I think so
[15:19] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:19] Mathilde Vhargon: hahahah
[15:20] Mathilde Vhargon: Well, you know you get a list each week of your friends' birthdays, etc.
[15:20] Clarisse Bernheim: lol
[15:20] Mathilde Vhargon: and people will invite you to their clubs, groups, etc.
[15:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: I wonder if there are more concenrs
[15:20] AmandaT Tamatzui: we still have not addressed yet?
[15:20] Mathilde Vhargon: so it is very easy to network there
[15:20] Mathilde Vhargon: and just be genuinely interested in connecting and letting people know you like them.
[15:21] BrainCrave OHare: i use http://www.linkedin.com/ for busines - i wonder if they have an artist community? i imagine they do - i join all sorts of business groups in linkedin.com, but i'd suggest artists checking it out as well and searching for art groups to join in it
[15:21] AmandaT Tamatzui: I will have to re read this to get what everyone has been saying
[15:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: I tend to type looking down form the screen and would have missed lots
[15:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes I am aprt of linked in too
[15:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: but that needs payment
[15:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: So ryze and xing free
[15:22] Mathilde Vhargon: Yes, I look forward to getting the chat log of this meeting
[15:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: and easier to connect
[15:22] AmandaT Tamatzui: but then you may get better people at Linked?
[15:22] Carter Cobalt: Thats it for me,for now.
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: Carter
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: we can talk later
[15:23] Carter Cobalt: its a lot to absorb
[15:23] BrainCrave OHare: i will post the chat log as soon as we're done here - it will take me about 20 minutes or so. just check the article at http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=34 and you'll see the link
[15:23] Clarisse Bernheim: oh great idea Brain
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: I hope
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: I want to knwo your ideas and hopes
[15:23] BrainCrave OHare: bye carter
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thansk Brain
[15:23] Carter Cobalt: yes bye
[15:23] Mathilde Vhargon: Thanks
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: ciao
[15:23] Carter Cobalt: thank you Brain
[15:23] Carter Cobalt: thanks to all
[15:23] Mathilde Vhargon: Really nice to meet you all
[15:23] Mathilde Vhargon: Goodbye
[15:23] AmandaT Tamatzui: see you...
[15:23] BrainCrave OHare: bye math
[15:24] Carter Cobalt: you also, bye
[15:24] BrainCrave OHare: so, to give amanda a short break until tonight, why don't we end it for now here and continue again at 7 PM SLT?
[15:24] BrainCrave OHare: amanda, thanx so much for offering all the wonderful advice
[15:24] AmandaT Tamatzui: thanks.. sorry I am quite sick iN Rl
[15:24] AmandaT Tamatzui: so may be a bit slow
[15:24] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:24] BrainCrave OHare: this has been so amazing - i hope everyone else will reach out to you personally to thank you
[15:24] Mathilde Vhargon: I will be asleep then, but look forward to seeing that chatlog posted. : )
[15:24] AmandaT Tamatzui: it was a pleasure
[15:24] BrainCrave OHare: so sorry to hear amanda - hope you get well soon
[15:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: tahnsk Brain
[15:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: sleep well Math
[15:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:25] Mathilde Vhargon: Yes, do take care of yourself, Amanda, and thanks so muchy
[15:25] Mathilde Vhargon: : )
[15:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: youa re welcome
[15:25] Clarisse Bernheim: thanks
[15:25] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:25] Mathilde Vhargon: I've taken an LM here so I can return
[15:26] BrainCrave OHare: again, please don't forget to check out amanda's amazing art here at the gallary
[15:28] Clarisse Bernheim: For me pricing the art is one of the most difficutl things, why doing that per hours wouldn’t worth? What would be the best form then, when you are starting?
[15:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: for example...
[15:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: say you used up 40 hours doing your paitning...
[15:28] AmandaT Tamatzui: if you charged even a low rate of $ 10 per hour....
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: that will make it worth how much?
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: 400?
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: usually our art takes more.
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: sorry
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: I meant to say 400 hours
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: so 4000
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: for an emerging artst
[15:29] Clarisse Bernheim: mmmm
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: we cna;t charge that
[15:29] Clarisse Bernheim: but it would depend on eachpiece, no?
[15:29] AmandaT Tamatzui: even though we think it is worth that
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: so.. if w find otu simialr art gets sold at $ 1200
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: that will have to be the price we well it at
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: and later
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: 2 -3 years time'it gets higher and higher
[15:30] Clarisse Bernheim: I usually send protratis for 200 e aprox, or some painting for 1000 if it's big. but how can I have an standart to start to value my work?
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: sometiems even within a fe wmonths
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: depeodngn on what happens
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: I wont pay for osmeone to value art yet
[15:30] AmandaT Tamatzui: unless you can truly afford to
[15:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: are we talking USD?
[15:31] Clarisse Bernheim: so, you mean that with more time happens, more expensive will be the painting???
[15:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[15:31] Clarisse Bernheim: ohh
[15:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: and Ileanrnt not to udnercyt galleries where I am exhibiting
[15:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: I tried to sell on a site like ebay once
[15:31] AmandaT Tamatzui: and my gallery perosn saw it and told me
[15:32] Clarisse Bernheim: I understand..... but this is in the case that a person is know, has a name, no?
[15:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: since the peice of art I was sellign was simialr to what was in her gallery
[15:32] Clarisse Bernheim: worked?
[15:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: she said i cna;t sell it as I am of different caliber now
[15:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:32] Clarisse Bernheim: mmm
[15:32] AmandaT Tamatzui: so I stopped sellign simialr art on ebay like places
[15:32] Clarisse Bernheim: what do you mean with USD?
[15:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: American dollars
[15:33] BrainCrave OHare: USD = US Dollars
[15:33] Clarisse Bernheim: ahh ok. no, I sell in Euros
[15:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: wow
[15:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: not bad for an emerging artist!
[15:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:33] Clarisse Bernheim: is too much?
[15:33] AmandaT Tamatzui: so 1000 euros?
[15:34] Clarisse Bernheim: i really have no got idea about standars of prices
[15:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: I know of soem emerging artsits selling prices of a few hundred dolalrs...
[15:34] Clarisse Bernheim: but this would be a painting of 100 x 81 cm, elebored
[15:34] Clarisse Bernheim: not a protrait
[15:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: even if later their work look to be wortth much ore
[15:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: Yes...
[15:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: I woudl say the rpice is worth is
[15:34] AmandaT Tamatzui: but the buyer's viewoint?
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: hard to judge...
[15:35] DigitalJack Blackhawk: general rule is something is worth what the buyer was willing to pay :)
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: Have you had people wanting to buy but they could not afford?
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: maybe you can sell it to that person (if you trust)
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: with a down payment of say 50%
[15:35] Clarisse Bernheim: yes Amanda
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: and they pay on installment
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: and the risk is
[15:35] Clarisse Bernheim: is really difficult to find people able to pay for the art
[15:35] AmandaT Tamatzui: even if they do nto pay you the rest fully
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: that 50% would have been okay
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: Yes
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: so you need to make a decision
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: stick witht he price
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: or sel it for lower
[15:36] Clarisse Bernheim: I have found people interested, but not able to pay for the work, and it's really difficult to find.
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: so it helps oyu promote yourself
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: I have given work away
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: for charities...
[15:36] AmandaT Tamatzui: the more you do the more your name gets out there
[15:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: one of my art were asked to be part of Project Hope
[15:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: which is a huge brand new place for families with people sufferign form cancer
[15:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: it was aired oN TV
[15:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: I missed it myself
[15:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: but all part of my resume
[15:37] AmandaT Tamatzui: YOu may need to do the same
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: and see if you can place a suitable art in a professional person's offfice
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: with foot traffic
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: or important people
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: going through
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: hotels
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: etc
[15:38] Carter Cobalt: hi there
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: BUt your art must be appropriate
[15:38] AmandaT Tamatzui: Hi carter
[15:38] Clarisse Bernheim: mmm understand
[15:38] Carter Cobalt: sorry to be so quiet back there
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: you don;t want gory bloody art in say a lawyer's office
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: it;s fine cobalt
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: carter sorry
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:39] Carter Cobalt: im just new ,and feeling my way in the dark
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: just love the coloour cobalt, I guess
[15:39] Clarisse Bernheim: I udnerstand that at the beginning your prices must be lower to be able to be known easier, no? is that what you mean?
[15:39] Carter Cobalt: but i see light
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: 'rememebr to send me pics of your art if you have them
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:39] Clarisse Bernheim: ohhh
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes clarisse
[15:39] AmandaT Tamatzui: You see light?
[15:39] Clarisse Bernheim: this is a great idea about the office
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: Yes because at least you will know people
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: who own offices
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: offer to replace art for them free
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: MY art is currently at bacilounge.com
[15:40] Carter Cobalt: I see therr is a fine place for me in SL art ,somewhere
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: a bookstore cafe that raise funds fo literacy prgram.,
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: met the man thorugh networking
[15:40] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes cobalt
[15:40] Clarisse Bernheim: si, I tried to go to hostels too
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: there would be
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: and get int ouch with MOna
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: she is in your country
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: Canada
[15:41] Clarisse Bernheim: bacilounge.com is a place to sell the art?
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: yes
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: they are sellign my art now
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:41] Clarisse Bernheim: woooow
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: and I have been asked to illustrate for one of his books
[15:41] AmandaT Tamatzui: the owner
[15:41] Carter Cobalt: yes I wii thanks
[15:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: 'is a novelisht and a doctor and was nominated New zealander of the year
[15:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: I Love people...
[15:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: and want to use my talents to help.
[15:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: I think us artists can do much
[15:42] AmandaT Tamatzui: instead
[15:42] Clarisse Bernheim: sounds so good
[15:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: when we are established we can help bring awareness to social issues and raise funds to help others
[15:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: that is why I am knwon as Creative Nut on a Mission
[15:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: otherwise i would b happy painting for myself
[15:43] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: Learn abt your potential customrsvisualize
[15:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: how they are like
[15:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: what they do
[15:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: when they wake
[15:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: yp
[15:44] AmandaT Tamatzui: what they wouold like to see on their walls\etc
[15:45] Clarisse Bernheim: mmm yes I understand
[15:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:46] Clarisse Bernheim: indeed if would be a great functionallity of he art
[15:46] AmandaT Tamatzui: you there/
[15:47] AmandaT Tamatzui: Cobalt...
[15:47] Clarisse Bernheim: Indeed it would be a good function of the art, that acts like chain to another possibilitiesat the same time. so good....
[15:48] Clarisse Bernheim: what do you mean with abt?
[15:48] Clarisse Bernheim: what does abt mean?
[15:48] Clarisse Bernheim: what do you mean with abt?
[15:49] AmandaT Tamatzui: abt is about
[15:49] Carter Cobalt: hey thats an abriviation
[15:50] Clarisse Bernheim: oh thanks
[15:50] Carter Cobalt: sorry,didnt want it to sound disrespectful
[15:50] Clarisse Bernheim: thank you very much for bringing your help and experience Amanda
[15:50] AmandaT Tamatzui: about
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: You are fine Carte
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: r
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: oh Thank you for having me
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: I only know a little bit
[15:51] Carter Cobalt: I dont know how helpful I was
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: but a little bit to someone who does not know that bit is good enough
[15:51] Carter Cobalt: but I did enjoy the company
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: I appreciate you being here
[15:51] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:51] Clarisse Bernheim: (eaten by lag) thanks you very much for bring us your help and experience Amanda
[15:52] AmandaT Tamatzui: and look forward to your art
[15:52] Carter Cobalt: very correct ! on soooooo many levels.
[15:52] DigitalJack Blackhawk: Having lived in NY one thing I have learned about the art community is there is an element of faux knowledge, Photographer Nat Tate is a perfect example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Tate
[15:52] Orchid Somerset: Amanda, I don't have anything to contribute, since I'm not an artist, but your work is beautiful
[15:52] DigitalJack Blackhawk: sorry I've been lurking today way too much multitasking
[15:52] Carter Cobalt: I need to do a lot of work to prepare
[15:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: Hi Orchid and Didital!
[15:53] DigitalJack Blackhawk: hiya
[15:53] AmandaT Tamatzui: lol
[15:54] DigitalJack Blackhawk: I need to go back and read the last several hours of chat LOL
[15:54] DigitalJack Blackhawk: caught bits n' pieces here only
[15:54] Clarisse Bernheim: mmm interesting jack
[15:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: HAHAHAHAHA
[15:54] Tak Kovacs: Yes...the hours of backlog DO get in the way of understanding
[15:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: hey Tak!!!
[15:54] Clarisse Bernheim: interesting jack
[15:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: Kisses
[15:54] Tak Kovacs: Amanda!!!
[15:54] Tak Kovacs: WHY ARE WE SHOUTING?
[15:54] AmandaT Tamatzui: HAHAHAHAHA
[15:54] Orchid Somerset: yes, jack, that's a great article
[15:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: fancy meeting you here :)
[15:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: Thansk for the article link jack
[15:55] Carter Cobalt: i havent read it yet
[15:55] AmandaT Tamatzui: I will read it later
[15:55] Tak Kovacs: I endure BrainCrave's topics on a fairly regular basis...
[15:55] DigitalJack Blackhawk: I have helped some artist friends in the past get some attention using the Nat Tate method, in this case I would play Nat Tate kinda
[15:55] BrainCrave OHare: :P at tak
[15:55] Tak Kovacs: ^^
[15:56] Clarisse Bernheim: lol
[15:56] Carter Cobalt: Amanda ,Ill Im you when your not so busy,Ive so many questions the mind reels.
[15:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: ok
[15:56] AmandaT Tamatzui: :)
[15:56] DigitalJack Blackhawk: wouldn't work as well today with the web's pervasiveness into everything but I know a few that are using the "nat tate method" via social networking
[15:56] Carter Cobalt: thanks
[15:57] Orchid Somerset: Jack; I think it's less about "lying" about an artist's credibility- anything to get a name out and people to check an artist out works, in my opinion
[15:58] Orchid Somerset: no press is bad press?
[15:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: What is Nate Tate?
[15:58] AmandaT Tamatzui: :P
[15:58] DigitalJack Blackhawk: no no there was no lying about the artist
-
braincrave permalink
The following discussion occurred on Saturday, February 13, 2010 at 9:00 AM SLT (PST) in Second Life at Within Ten Years (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Within%20Ten%20Years/69/198/24). It is based on part 1 of Ayn Rand's novel The Fountainhead. The BrainCrave.com group on Second Life is free to join. Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.
[9:07] BrainCrave OHare: BrainCrave.com Book Club starting now. We will attempt to do this in group chat unless there is significant lag. If so, we’ll switch to local. Please join us at http://slurl.com/secondlife/Within%20Ten%20Years/69/196/24
[9:11] Ullanta Flux: ok?
[9:11] BrainCrave OHare: :)
[9:11] Tyrehl Byk: nods
[9:11] Xeno Octavia: yups
[9:11] BrainCrave OHare: today's discussion is on part 1: Peter Keating. so, do you like it so far?
[9:12] Ullanta Flux: cool thanks for patience
[9:13] BrainCrave OHare: no worries
[9:13] Xeno Octavia: lol --oh u mean the book
[9:13] Xeno Octavia: am i being heard
[9:13] Tyrehl Byk: the character or the book to this point?
[9:13] Tyrehl Byk: I haven't even seen my comment yet
[9:13] BrainCrave OHare: what do you think of howard roark so far? do you find him heroic? why or why not?
[9:13] Tyrehl Byk: Hey sol
[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: welcome sol
[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: sorry - let's switch to local please
[9:14] Ullanta Flux: don't like Petey keatie
[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: why don't you like peter ullanta?
[9:14] Tyrehl Byk: lol
[9:14] BrainCrave OHare: ah, i see already that group chat is going to be laggy, so we'll be switching to local... if anyone needs a TP, please IM me
[9:15] Xeno Octavia: or his goyle friend
[9:16] Xeno Octavia: i dont like rourk
[9:17] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, please switch to local
[9:15] Ullanta Flux: he pa rasitical
[9:15] BrainCrave OHare: what makes you think so?
[9:15] BrainCrave OHare: welcome haneru
[9:15] Haneru Qi: Thanks BC
[9:15] BrainCrave OHare: why don't you like peter's girlfriend xeno?
[9:16] Xeno Octavia: so we bak here -- yes
[9:16] BrainCrave OHare: yes xeno - sorry about that... sometimes group chat works, sometimes it doesn't
[9:16] Ullanta Flux: need howies help for everything
[9:16] BrainCrave OHare: it's a good observation ullanta
[9:17] BrainCrave OHare: what don't you like about roark xeno?
[9:17] Xeno Octavia: yah but thats part 2
[9:17] Solange Sonnenkern: ty Brain
[9:17] BrainCrave OHare: well, let's try to keep the discussion to part 1 for now
[9:18] Xeno Octavia: he's kinda brainded --caught up in his memetics
[9:18] Solange Sonnenkern: so what are we discussing about part one atm?
[9:18] Solange Sonnenkern: Peter K?
[9:18] BrainCrave OHare: yes sol
[9:18] Ullanta Flux: when part 1 end?
[9:18] BrainCrave OHare: part 1 is the peter keating chapter
[9:18] Solange Sonnenkern: kk well i found this secion of interest on pg 33
[9:19] BrainCrave OHare: about page 200 in the paperback (english version)
[9:19] BrainCrave OHare: and what was that about sol, and what did you find interesting?
[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: If you want my advice, you've made a mistake already. By asking me. By asking anyone..
[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: Never ask people. Not about your work
[9:19] BrainCrave OHare: do you agree with that sol?
[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: Don'tyou konw what you want?
[9:19] Solange Sonnenkern: How cna you stand it, not to know
[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: I think this encapsulates (sp?) Peter's personality
[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: he doesn't know
[9:20] Xeno Octavia: oh u mean chapter not all 15 chaps in Part 1 of book
[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: and he is therefor not anchored
[9:20] Solange Sonnenkern: floating and susceptible
[9:20] BrainCrave OHare: that's a great observation sol, and one that becomes much more important as you read the other chapters
[9:21] Solange Sonnenkern: he goes on to say
[9:21] Solange Sonnenkern: I'm never sure of myself
[9:21] BrainCrave OHare: xeno - the discussion today is up through page 200
[9:21] Solange Sonnenkern: so it is a bit black and white with Roark and Peter - a bit too much for my taste, but it does make the point
[9:21] Xeno Octavia: oh good
[9:21] Xeno Octavia: thru til part 2 of book
[9:21] BrainCrave OHare: actually sol, you will find that rand does that a lot in her books
[9:22] Solange Sonnenkern: i know ã‹¡
[9:22] BrainCrave OHare: when you read any of ayn rand's novels, no matter how much you might enjoy the drama, never forget that she's trying to communicate to you her philosophy... her moral principles. she does this through her characters. so what moral principles or values do you think roark represents and, more importantly, why?
[9:22] Solange Sonnenkern: it is a trait i often find in libertarians, particularly the anarchist breed lol
[9:22] BrainCrave OHare: :)
[9:23] Solange Sonnenkern: but...and this is just my opinion... the black and white nature is not always the best to win people over to their philosophy
[9:23] Solange Sonnenkern: a more gradual approach often works better - meeting them wehre they are
[9:23] Haneru Qi: roark = will to power, I think
[9:23] Xeno Octavia: my local libs dont like anarchals
[9:23] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean by that haneru?
[9:23] Solange Sonnenkern: roark - radical indiviualism
[9:24] BrainCrave OHare: why do you call individualism radical sol?
[9:24] Haneru Qi: rayn was transmogrifying Nietzsche into more palatable romanticisim
[9:24] Haneru Qi: ayn*
[9:24] Solange Sonnenkern: i call Roark's indiv. radical
[9:24] Tyrehl Byk: There is an unbridled ego process that emerges through the character of Roark.
[9:24] Solange Sonnenkern: (i will be skipping ahed in teh book if i say now lol)
[9:24] BrainCrave OHare: interestingly enough haneru, rand was opposed to nietzshe
[9:24] Solange Sonnenkern: yes
[9:25] BrainCrave OHare: how so tyrehl?
[9:25] Tyrehl Byk: constant self-referential thoughts.
[9:26] Ullanta Flux: nitsche concerned with influence
[9:26] BrainCrave OHare: that is a great assessment of roark - he does appear to be all about the self
[9:26] Solange Sonnenkern: the adjective "impervious" comes to mind
[9:26] Xeno Octavia: so does 'isolated'
[9:26] BrainCrave OHare: sol, what is roark impervious to?
[9:27] Haneru Qi: Rand (later) has Toohey actually quote Nietzsche's "Thus Spake..."...yet Roark seems embody the "take action" ideaology without the nihilism
[9:27] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, do you consider isolated negative?
[9:27] Solange Sonnenkern: he seems to me to represent the extreme case of a field-independent personality
[9:27] Solange Sonnenkern: it is all coming internally
[9:27] Tyrehl Byk: perspectives that do not align with his own,
[9:27] Haneru Qi: oops...forgive my skippage - I think it's all these flowers
[9:27] Xeno Octavia: not neccessarily
[9:27] Solange Sonnenkern: except for an occasional mentor
[9:27] BrainCrave OHare: what values do you think keating represents?
[9:28] Solange Sonnenkern: the exterme field -dependent personality
[9:28] Tyrehl Byk: anti-roark
[9:28] Solange Sonnenkern: every little wind blowing him this way and that
[9:28] BrainCrave OHare: exactly tyrehl
[9:28] Solange Sonnenkern: lol yes anti-roark
[9:28] BrainCrave OHare: so, in other words, you might say that keating is the alter-ego of roark?
[9:29] Xeno Octavia: he isnt a kind of man i would deal with --to empty of self tho filled with ego
[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: great desc Xeno
[9:29] BrainCrave OHare: xeno - that sounds like a contradiction though... how can you be empty of self yet filled with ego?
[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: if he had no ego, he woudl be harmless
[9:29] Tyrehl Byk: filled with ego?
[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: he's dangerous
[9:29] Solange Sonnenkern: a wild canon
[9:29] BrainCrave OHare: to whom is he dangerous to sol?
[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: Roark
[9:30] Xeno Octavia: tho peter is similar but filled with SELF is real ego a costume
[9:30] Haneru Qi: well, ego out of balance with superego, maybe?
[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: original thought
[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: creativity
[9:30] BrainCrave OHare: by definition, ego means self-esteem - do you think keating has self-esteem?
[9:30] Xeno Octavia: sorru run on txt
[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: he represents most American to me
[9:30] Haneru Qi: maybe exclusively self-esteem, yes
[9:30] Solange Sonnenkern: brb
[9:31] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, do you think keating has self-esteem?
[9:31] Xeno Octavia: qanswer waws -- SELF is real ego a costume
[9:32] Tyrehl Byk: ?? at Xeno
[9:32] BrainCrave OHare: how about you ullanta - do you think keating has self-esteem?
[9:32] Xeno Octavia: no he's to craven keating
[9:32] Ullanta Flux: other esteem
[9:32] BrainCrave OHare: what other esteem is there?
[9:32] Haneru Qi: good word, "craven"
[9:32] Xeno Octavia: Tyr ? ?
[9:33] Ullanta Flux: not self
[9:33] Tyrehl Byk: you said "SELF is real ego a costume
[9:33] Xeno Octavia: ge'
[9:33] BrainCrave OHare: starting on p. 61 (of the paperback version), henry cameron tried to convince roark to "compromise." what did he mean by that and why do you think he was doing it?
[9:33] Tyrehl Byk: explain please
[9:34] Xeno Octavia: Self is ur essential Being and ego is costume u have constructed andear
[9:34] Xeno Octavia: in second life this process becomes very visable
[9:34] Tyrehl Byk: there is a difference, Brain between what compromise points at and what sacrifice points at...I think Rand confused her choice of words in that sentence.
[9:35] Tyrehl Byk: Self and ego dont point at teh same things, Xeno?
[9:35] Xeno Octavia: he waws doing it to test him or scare him
[9:35] BrainCrave OHare: possibly tyrehl, though she might have actually written those words intentionally as rand clearly understood the difference between compromise and sacrifice (which she explains very clearly in atlas shrugged)
[9:36] Xeno Octavia: yes Tyr they dont
[9:36] BrainCrave OHare: i don't think that's correct xeno - cameron wasn't trying to test nor scare roark
[9:36] BrainCrave OHare: any other ideas what cameron was getting at?
[9:36] Tyrehl Byk: It was a compassionate act.
[9:37] BrainCrave OHare: would you explain that tyrehl?
[9:37] Tyrehl Byk: a confused attempt to sooth what he thought may cause Roark pain.
[9:37] Solange Sonnenkern: ii think Cameron was question his own life choices You;re too good...it's no goo wasting your life on an ideal that you'll never reach
[9:37] BrainCrave OHare: i agree with that tyrehl
[9:38] BrainCrave OHare: correct sol
[9:38] Tyrehl Byk: the pain was not in Roark, but rather Cameron's own
[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: making a torture rack for yourself
[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: yes i agree ã‹¡
[9:38] Xeno Octavia: when someone says there child has artistic talent and what shud they do --i te;ll them try breaking their fingers if they still go ahead ok if not the [keating]
[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: but i would add that all creators grapple with this
[9:38] Haneru Qi: so Cameron was encouraging realism over ideology?
[9:38] BrainCrave OHare: exactly sol - what's the point of striving to achieve an ideal if you have no chance of getting to it and everyone will be against you? in other words, cameron was suggesting that, if you hold to principles, you are going to get hurt... badly
[9:38] Solange Sonnenkern: all have ideals, greater than what they can accomplish...imagination is limitless, real life is not
[9:39] Solange Sonnenkern: if he holds to his dreams, i would say
[9:39] BrainCrave OHare: i'm not sure i understand the analogy xeno
[9:39] Haneru Qi: a man's reach should exceed his grasp, then
[9:39] Solange Sonnenkern: nods
[9:40] Tyrehl Byk: as I said, Brain, he didn't realize it but he was speaking of his own pain and mistakenly extending that onto Roark who was written as impervious to pain.
[9:40] BrainCrave OHare: haneru, it might be more pragmatism that cameron was suggesting
[9:40] Solange Sonnenkern: but it takes effort for most to remain in that space
[9:40] Solange Sonnenkern: esecially with the Keating's of the world
[9:40] BrainCrave OHare: i agree with that tyrehl - psychologists call this projection
[9:40] Solange Sonnenkern: (one of the reasons I like SL- higher percentage of people going beyond the norm)
[9:41] Xeno Octavia: the analogy is i am cameron to the parent [rourk] if child wants be artist break fingers a poain being artist do child a favor cameron tellin rourk same thing
[9:41] Haneru Qi: doesn't pragmatacism sell one's ideals short a priori - which would constitute (perhaps) Rand's greatest villainy?
[9:41] BrainCrave OHare: if anything xeno, i'd suggest that cameron is trying to protect roark as he learnt from his own experiences
[9:42] BrainCrave OHare: that is correct haneru
[9:42] Solange Sonnenkern: tell us more Haneru, please
[9:42] Solange Sonnenkern: i want to understand that better
[9:42] Haneru Qi: concretizing one's ideals as an expression of humanity seems to me to be what objectivism is all about
[9:42] Solange Sonnenkern: villainy?
[9:43] Solange Sonnenkern: she is being a villian to hold the highest possible vision of humanity?
[9:43] Haneru Qi: not moulding them within the limitations of pragmatic - or popular - short-sightedness
[9:43] BrainCrave OHare: well, i'm not sure it's accurate to broadly state that about objectivism (ayn rand's formal philosophy), but it is correct to say that pragmatism shorts ideals and is inconsistent with what rand espouses
[9:44] Haneru Qi: oh no...I meant that her expression(s) of villainy would be thus displayed...her bad guys are almost always accomodating
[9:44] Haneru Qi: go-along-to-get-along = weak
[9:44] Haneru Qi: a popular concept in her time...maybe not so much anymore
[9:44] BrainCrave OHare: correct haneru - her villians (and peter keating is one of them) are pragmatic (and this is consistent in all of her novels)
[9:45] Xeno Octavia: yes snd my telling parent is to protect child
[9:45] BrainCrave OHare: do you think it was right or wrong for roark to help keating on his first design, and why? also, do you think this was even a question of morality?
[9:45] Haneru Qi: the work is the thing, right? Not how it got done, or by whom
[9:46] Solange Sonnenkern: interesting
[9:46] Haneru Qi: that's the overarching construct, as it were
[9:46] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps haneru - why do you think that?
[9:47] Haneru Qi: well...going back to the ego distinction...maybe the intent was to show that the design transcneds the creator?
[9:48] Solange Sonnenkern: i would need to re-read that section, but i wondered if Roark hoped Keating would "wake up"
[9:49] Tyrehl Byk: Perhaps this was a way to paint the relationship in a manner that would better illustrate the duality in the Roark/Anti-Roark concepts.
[9:49] Haneru Qi: trying to shake the sycophant, then
[9:49] BrainCrave OHare: that's not the way i interpreted it heneru. i think that roark was expressing his ideals in a sense (e.g., help man help himself because helping another's struggle to perfection is a good thing). however, what it also did was give keating an opportunity to continue/enrich his false sense of self
[9:50] Haneru Qi: hmmmm...I can see that
[9:51] BrainCrave OHare: and this is an interesting concept because it provides an example of what happens in one sense when we help others - even if it's an expression of our own principles, the outcome might be negative
[9:51] Xeno Octavia: : yes 'ego'is false sense of self
[9:51] BrainCrave OHare: and that is something to consider as you read the rest of the book. especially because roark later makes a statement about that (i won't tell you where) :)
[9:52] Haneru Qi: so we may inadvertantly enable humanities baser tendencies and weakness by assisting them to reach higher than their inherent limitations?
[9:52] Tyrehl Byk: You continue to draw a distinction between ego and self, Xeno. How do you know that they aren't two sides of the same coin?
[9:52] Xeno Octavia: no spoilers!!
[9:52] Haneru Qi: lol@spoilers
[9:52] BrainCrave OHare: no spoilers xeno, i promise
[9:52] Solange Sonnenkern: i think this comes down to a definition of "help"
[9:52] Solange Sonnenkern: to me, Roark was not {"helping"
[9:52] Solange Sonnenkern: he was "doing"
[9:53] Haneru Qi: by proxy?
[9:53] Tyrehl Byk: interestng!
[9:53] BrainCrave OHare: xeno, to tyrehl's point, ego=self and self=ego. you might find value in reading some more on this topi
[9:53] BrainCrave OHare: topic
[9:53] Solange Sonnenkern: this is at the heart of teaching
[9:53] Xeno Octavia: sorry Tyl --self examine --ur model of coin too dualist
[9:54] BrainCrave OHare: it's a good observation sol. the question then becomes: so where is roark's error in his logic?
[9:54] Xeno Octavia: lol Brain that is western philo BS --go east young man!!
[9:54] Solange Sonnenkern: he is not a facilator by nature
[9:54] BrainCrave OHare: starting on p. 94, roark and guy francon had an altercation when roark wouldn't do a design like francon wanted him to. it cost roark his job. do you agree or disagree with what roark did?
[9:54] Ullanta Flux: sorry will be less distracted next time bye all
[9:54] Haneru Qi: in assuming a mouse might change his stripes?
[9:54] Solange Sonnenkern: he may not be able to "teach, mentor, coach"
[9:54] BrainCrave OHare: bye ull
[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: bye Ullanta
[9:55] Tyrehl Byk: Don't know what his overhead expenses were so can't comment...
[9:55] Tyrehl Byk: lol
[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: i see this in highly competent people often
[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: haha
[9:55] BrainCrave OHare: lol
[9:55] Haneru Qi: haha
[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: there is a selflessnes that is needed to be a good teacher
[9:55] BrainCrave OHare: is that true sol? i wonder
[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: most top notch people i konw would rather spend their time learning more
[9:55] Xeno Octavia: sure no need keep 'job' not wanted i wouldnt
[9:55] Solange Sonnenkern: ok selflessness is wrong word
[9:55] Haneru Qi: those who can't teach, do
[9:56] Solange Sonnenkern: generosity
[9:56] Solange Sonnenkern: i don't belive that Han :P
[9:56] Haneru Qi: I hope you're right, i fact
[9:56] Solange Sonnenkern: has really hurt education but that is a side tangent lol
[9:56] Haneru Qi: *in
[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: i will try to explain better
[9:57] BrainCrave OHare: can you imagine making the stand that roark did? knowing full-well he didn't have another job, but refusing to do the work he was told to do even though it meant not getting paid
[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: Roark has a drive to create
[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: if he spends time training others
[9:57] Xeno Octavia: there are good teachers bad teachers and great teachers ---good teachers are the worst they who keatings follow
[9:57] Solange Sonnenkern: it reduces what he can create, and his vision is already fAR beyond what he knows he can do in his lifetime
[9:57] Haneru Qi: well he'd be Wynand, then
[9:57] Haneru Qi: in a way
[9:58] BrainCrave OHare: so what do you think of dominique francon?
[9:58] Tyrehl Byk: I'd do her
[9:58] Tyrehl Byk: lol
[9:58] BrainCrave OHare: lol
[9:59] Haneru Qi: statuesque
[9:59] Tyrehl Byk: is a bit of a devil
[9:59] Solange Sonnenkern: well i did something similiar to Roark once, and quit without another job...because it was clear the mgmt of hte company had some values i did not share
[9:59] Solange Sonnenkern: quit on the spot
[9:59] BrainCrave OHare: now that's sticking to your principles sol - that's a real test of integrity
[10:00] Solange Sonnenkern: nods
[10:00] Haneru Qi: that's admirable, to adhere to one's ideals, at risk
[10:00] Solange Sonnenkern: the extreme cases are easier
[10:00] Solange Sonnenkern: it's when it's grey, it can be harder to make a stand
[10:00] BrainCrave OHare: how many of us really hold to our ideals? in fact, how many of us even could define what our ideals are?
[10:01] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps its grey because we don't fully understand our ideals... i.e., what we stand for?
[10:01] Solange Sonnenkern: well the greyness i am referring to is "is it better to do some..and work an organization to a higher place...or to have none?"
[10:02] Xeno Octavia: dominique set up to b rourcs goylfren but in chap 1 part 2 she shows she's a gar
[10:02] Haneru Qi: I'll define my ideals during my thank you speech for the Nobel Lit prize, after I get this book finished
[10:02] Haneru Qi: so far I have the page numbers
[10:02] Solange Sonnenkern: smiles
[10:02] BrainCrave OHare: i'm sorry xeno - i didn't understand your comment
[10:02] BrainCrave OHare: lol haneru
[10:02] Haneru Qi: I'm up to 643, tho!
[10:02] Haneru Qi: woot
[10:02] Xeno Octavia: she's a gargoyl i sed
[10:03] Haneru Qi: a decorative rain spout?
[10:03] BrainCrave OHare: well sol, i'm not sure you're speaking of fundamental values there - you're speaking in relative terms of one choice to another
[10:03] Tyrehl Byk: That sort of mind-pattern training regarding ieals is useful, Brain but also can be a source of endless confusion.
[10:04] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps tyrehl, unless you think in terms of black-or-white :)
[10:04] Xeno Octavia: shes a image of stoopid woman in that chap --a real turn off maybe net to garboys
[10:04] Tyrehl Byk: Rand lived her life almost entirely in an either-or world. That sort of duality is what fucked up her personal life quite a bit.
[10:04] Solange Sonnenkern: lmao Xeno
[10:05] BrainCrave OHare: well, in a sense tyrehl, that's a judgment call on your part (which of course you're entitled to make). the question is: do you think rand saw it the same way? did she think her life was fucked up?
[10:05] Haneru Qi: She had a pair, though...of several things
[10:05] Haneru Qi: frontal lobes, even
[10:05] Solange Sonnenkern: hahaha
[10:05] BrainCrave OHare: she said on p. 144 that she wants perfection, or nothing. as she can't have perfection, she wants nothing. do you agree with her approach to life? is perfection an improper standard to have?
[10:05] Haneru Qi: and that's Nietzsche writ small
[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: Perfection.
[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: wow
[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: my first reaction was
[10:07] Solange Sonnenkern: Perfection shifts
[10:08] Solange Sonnenkern: she is asked, "what kind of tragedy did you ahve in your childhood"?"
[10:08] Xeno Octavia: perfection is no thing --is emptiness
[10:08] BrainCrave OHare: why xeno?
[10:08] Tyrehl Byk: smiles at xeno
[10:09] Xeno Octavia: same as ego for u = pefection = emptiness Dzogchen
[10:09] Tyrehl Byk: don't even try, xeno...you're never gonna get there with words.
[10:09] Haneru Qi: perfection is the flaws
[10:09] BrainCrave OHare: lol tyrehl
[10:09] Xeno Octavia: tru perfection includes all flaws or not perfect
[10:10] Tyrehl Byk: MU!
[10:10] BrainCrave OHare: so we should all strive for second-best? third-best? fourth-best?
[10:10] Solange Sonnenkern: ã‹¡
[10:10] Xeno Octavia: no Brain just recognize we R best
[10:10] Xeno Octavia: i asm
[10:11] BrainCrave OHare: on p. 160, austen heller tells roark that he is the coldest man he's ever known, but he's also the most life-giving person he's ever known. do you think that's a contradiction? why?
[10:11] Xeno Octavia: yes Tyr mu!
[10:12] Tyrehl Byk: makes a cow sound...
[10:12] Xeno Octavia: no because i see him mainly cold
[10:12] Solange Sonnenkern: he's life-giving because he is holding ideals for others of what one can be as a human being
[10:13] BrainCrave OHare: he's doing even more than that sol - not only is he holding ideals, but he's putting them into practice... and others are benefiting from them
[10:13] Xeno Octavia: his display doesnt work for me his cold is frozen --he's very rigid
[10:13] Solange Sonnenkern: people perceive otheres who are field independent as cold ...also on page 45 "Men hate passion, any great passion"
[10:13] BrainCrave OHare: why is it considered "cold" to hold to an ideal?
[10:14] BrainCrave OHare: why is it considered rigid xeno to hold to an ideal?
[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: no bullshit
[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: he calls people on it
[10:14] Tyrehl Byk: It is a position that does not feed the ego process running in other people
[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: yes ã‹¡
[10:14] Solange Sonnenkern: expressed much better lol
[10:15] Solange Sonnenkern: and others know it
[10:15] BrainCrave OHare: ergo tyrehl, if you're not feeding someone else's ego (which should be their own job/responsibility), you're considered cold?
[10:15] Xeno Octavia: i not talking bout his [or her] ideals but about his posture as a being wether his self may be rigid or not --his ego structure is
[10:15] Tyrehl Byk: the ego process that is being starved of nutrition would consider it cold, yes.
[10:15] Xeno Octavia: he has NO sense of humor
[10:16] Solange Sonnenkern: he's on a mission, xeno
[10:16] Solange Sonnenkern: i sense time is of the essence for him
[10:16] BrainCrave OHare: on p. 163, roark makes the following statement to mr. mundy: "Don't you see... [i]t's a monument you want to build, but not to yourself. Not to your own life or your own achievement. To other people. To their supremacy over you. You're not challenging that supremacy. You're immortalizing it." what principle is roark driving at here?
[10:17] Xeno Octavia: wish i had memory access but cubist hu killed in guatamala or was --sed revolutionary without sense of humor is a piece o sh
[10:17] Solange Sonnenkern: lol
[10:19] Xeno Octavia: cuban was clos ta castro --is on posters and t-shirts
[10:19] BrainCrave OHare: you can see from all of the commissions that roark has turned down that he is suffering terribly. what is he suffering for?
[10:20] Haneru Qi: obsequiousness?
[10:20] Tyrehl Byk: perhaps it was Rand's confused attempt to illustrate the supremacy of self referential values, by having Roark project those onto another person's perspective which, of course he had no knowledge and couldn't possibly know.
[10:20] Xeno Octavia: he not suffering he self-rightously enjoying
[10:20] Haneru Qi: cool, Tyrehl, though it implies a tangential depth to Rand's novels that I'm not accustomed to looking for
[10:21] Tyrehl Byk: ;)
[10:21] BrainCrave OHare: actually xeno, it appears that roark is suffering - but i think he's suffering because he's standing up for his ideals
[10:22] Xeno Octavia: he faking suffering tho deeply just like keating is faking his way
[10:22] Solange Sonnenkern: nice connection ã‹¡
[10:22] BrainCrave OHare: why do you think he's faking it?
[10:22] Solange Sonnenkern: i am not sure he feels much
[10:23] Solange Sonnenkern: so i have a hard time thinking he is feeling suffering
[10:23] Solange Sonnenkern: i sense he moves on
[10:23] BrainCrave OHare: last question: do you have any idea yet what the fountainhead refers to?
[10:23] Tyrehl Byk: It's plausible to assume that Roark was written to ever suffer. It is probably common for reader to *wish* he was suffering.
[10:23] Tyrehl Byk: ^not written
[10:24] Solange Sonnenkern: nods
[10:24] BrainCrave OHare: i think he is suffering tyrehl. in fact, when i re-read it, i can actually "feel" his pain
[10:25] Solange Sonnenkern: i would say the pain comes from teh black/white thinking
[10:25] Xeno Octavia: he is faking from ego trip of who he spossed ta b
[10:25] BrainCrave OHare: to me sol, it's is thinking in the gray that is painful - thinking in terms of black or white is better :)
[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: i know Brain
[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: depends upon what youa re trying to accomplish
[10:26] Tyrehl Byk: The word is not the thing....
[10:26] BrainCrave OHare: perhaps
[10:26] Tyrehl Byk: sigh
[10:26] Haneru Qi: gray doesn;t look gray when you contrast it with either white or black...only when it's placed in between
[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: nods
[10:26] Xeno Octavia: i thinks full color
[10:26] Solange Sonnenkern: smiles ã‹¡
[10:26] BrainCrave OHare: so, no ideas on what the fountainhead is referring to?
[10:27] Tyrehl Byk: the source as Rand sees it.
[10:27] Tyrehl Byk: "source"
[10:27] BrainCrave OHare: right, but what is that source?
[10:27] Tyrehl Byk: The thing she got wrong
[10:27] Xeno Octavia: i waiting for the great sex --dont think it can come [or is it cum] in this book
[10:28] BrainCrave OHare: the sex is there xeno, but not yet :)
[10:28] Solange Sonnenkern: don't give up hope, Xeno ã‹¡
[10:28] Tyrehl Byk: goes looking in his inventory for the mechanical penis....
[10:28] Solange Sonnenkern: lol
[10:28] Xeno Octavia: deepest SELF is source --ego the BSer
[10:28] Haneru Qi: Gary Cooper was cool, though
[10:28] BrainCrave OHare: exactly xeno! well done
[10:29] Tyrehl Byk: and, Xeno, no matter how hard you look it just aint there!
[10:29] BrainCrave OHare: lol
[10:29] Xeno Octavia: : )
[10:29] BrainCrave OHare: the fountainhead is referring to man's ego, which you will understand more so as you read the rest of the book
[10:29] Tyrehl Byk: Not just that, Brain
[10:30] Tyrehl Byk: The idea that the ego is a "thing"
[10:30] Xeno Octavia: i understand man's ego as well as woman's but i understand Rigpa as well
[10:30] BrainCrave OHare: what do you mean tyrehl?
[10:30] Tyrehl Byk: That is the mistake Rand made time and time again.
[10:30] Tyrehl Byk: Think of ego as a verb and not a a noun.
[10:30] Xeno Octavia: ego is constructed mostly in th 1st 5 yrs
[10:31] Xeno Octavia: with minor adjustments latert
[10:31] BrainCrave OHare: i can't see how you could tyrehl - can you use it in a sentence please?
[10:32] Xeno Octavia: i was egoing down the street?
[10:32] Tyrehl Byk: I don't point at the idea with the word "ego' but rather with the words "ego-process"
[10:32] BrainCrave OHare: lol
[10:32] Haneru Qi: brim pulled way down low
[10:32] BrainCrave OHare: but the process would have an outcome, correct? what would be the outcome of the ego-process?
[10:32] Tyrehl Byk: confusion
[10:32] BrainCrave OHare: hmmmm
[10:32] Xeno Octavia: often stoopidity
[10:32] Solange Sonnenkern: smiles
[10:33] Haneru Qi: not all processes have outcomes
[10:33] Solange Sonnenkern: nod
[10:33] Xeno Octavia: journey without an end
[10:33] BrainCrave OHare: well haeru, actions lead to reactions (newton's third law)
[10:33] Haneru Qi: songs don't have outcomes
[10:33] Haneru Qi: and the 3rd law is my LEAST favorite anyway
[10:34] BrainCrave OHare: haneru - the process of creating a song leads to the outcome of a song, correct?
[10:34] Xeno Octavia: now in quantum can have reactions lead to actions --relativity
[10:34] Tyrehl Byk: oh dear god.....The Secret!
[10:34] Haneru Qi: what does entropy have to do with heat anyway? silly newton
[10:34] BrainCrave OHare: lol
[10:35] Tyrehl Byk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm0fRKiQ7jU
[10:35] Haneru Qi: well that's a meta-process, bc...a song has a beginning, middle, end, codified structure from intro thru denoument...in every way a process
[10:35] Xeno Octavia: if ur reality can be located in 6D space time is a volume not a simplistic dimension
[10:36] Haneru Qi: but pointless.
[10:36] Haneru Qi: if only the book had been "Flatland"! sigh
[10:36] Xeno Octavia: it was
[10:36] BrainCrave OHare: ok, so with that, i think we'll close on the formal discussion, though you're all welcome to stay and continue chatting. i appreciate everyone coming out and i apologize that there were many who said they were coming but didn't make it
[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: just saw that Haneru
[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: i thought this was a nice size, Brain
[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: no apology necessary ã‹¡
[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: good sol
[10:37] Solange Sonnenkern: thank you for doing this
[10:37] Haneru Qi: very cool Brain, thanks for organizing it
[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: it's my pleasure
[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: yw - actually natalia really was the organizer
[10:37] Tyrehl Byk: So when is part 2?
[10:37] BrainCrave OHare: so please do thank her
[10:37] Tyrehl Byk whispers: ã‹¡
[10:37] Xeno Octavia: yes was kool =---and we both behaved : ))
[10:38] Solange Sonnenkern: NAtalia?
[10:38] Tyrehl Byk: ooh..there are times when you don't?
[10:38] BrainCrave OHare: well, let me speak with natalia about that and i'll get back to you tyrehl. what we may want to do is do the whole rest of the book next time
[10:38] Tyrehl Byk: May we see some please?
[10:38] Tyrehl Byk whispers: ã‹¡
[10:38] BrainCrave OHare: sorry - Nathalia Schmooz... she organized this
[10:39] Solange Sonnenkern: thanks ã‹¡
[10:39] BrainCrave OHare: i'm sure she would appreciate an IM thanking her
[10:40] Tyrehl Byk: can do
[10:40] Haneru Qi: I'm off, thanks to you all for the enjoyably edifying diversion - ciao!
[10:40] BrainCrave OHare: thanx haneru
[10:40] Solange Sonnenkern: take Care, Han
[10:41] Tyrehl Byk: byeee
[10:41] BrainCrave OHare: cya tyrehl - thanx
[10:41] Tyrehl Byk: sure
[10:41] Xeno Octavia: yes nite all!!
[10:41] BrainCrave OHare: bye xeno
[10:41] Solange Sonnenkern: nite Xeno
-
braincrave permalink
The following discussion occurred on Saturday, December 26, 2009 at 7:00 PM/19:00 SLT (PST) in Second Life at BrainCrave.com @Avgi, Avgi (69, 146, 32) (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Avgi/69/146/32). It is based on the article titled A Challenge - Defend Evolution Against Intelligent Design. The BrainCrave.com group on Second Life is free to join. Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: ok folks, we're going to try to do this in group chat. BUT, if it gets really laggy, we'll switch to local
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: i think we're ready to begin
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: please let me know if you need a tp
[19:02] Randi Grigorovich: ok
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: Twas the day after Christmas and all through the world,
many people we’re stirring about those who refused to observe.
[19:02] Noemi Ahren: lol
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: Bank accounts were empty, and families exhausted with fear,
“without believers and faith,” they cried, “God will never appear!”
[19:02] Solange Sonnenkern: LOL clevah!
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: Atheists slept in, their minds solidly secured,
“With scientific knowledge,” they professed, “our conclusions will not be disturbed.”
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: And then in SL, there arose such a clatter,
Pixeled penises were turned off to see what was the matter.
[19:03] Noemi Ahren cracks up.
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: Birric Forcella appeared to challenge what they thought was fact.
“You’ve been slacking,” he claimed. “It is logic you lack.”
[19:03] Worgen Hokkigai: that doesnt sound like sl
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: “I challenge you all to a duel of the mind…
to encourage you to think for yourselves, and help save mankind.”
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: With that as an intro, I hope you all will try to pay close attention to the goal. The goal is to defend evolution against the four hypotheses Birric has put forward. You can read the challenges at http://braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=20. And, with that, consider the discussion open.
[19:04] Incognito Corvale: Birric Forcella challenging whatever is moving. Sounds very much business as usual.
[19:04] Birric Forcella: Has anybody not read my card - or the blog entry with the four points?
[19:06] phillip1882 Arabello: could you send me copy, i read the blog entry but need reminder
[19:06] Ceri Barrymore: I read them with great interest and I can't say that I contradict any of them, but having observed many of these discussions and also feeling I am open minded and somewhat intelligent I find entering too heavily into your discussions to be a bit daunting although I find the discussions absolutely fascinating
[19:06] Xeno Octavia: ah --ok ---but why??
[19:07] Birric Forcella: Oh, so we have creationists/intelligent design adherents among us?
[19:08] Blonde Starsmith: still can't hear but shows it's active
[19:08] Noemi Ahren: Not voice - text.
[19:08] Blonde Starsmith: okies ty
[19:08] Noemi Ahren: np
[19:08] Worgen Hokkigai: if we do they probably shouldnt be in the group
[19:09] Randi Grigorovich: intellegent design is religion dressed up as science and hence based on myth. Not reality my opinion.
[19:09] Blonde Starsmith: I haven't
[19:10] Elizabeth Spieler: reality is that which never changes
[19:10] Birric Forcella: Well, my four points are meant to challenge evolution - in case you should have missed that - and to see if you can defend evolution in a coherent way.
[19:10] MargaretGrace Sapphire: It is an attempt to supress science so that children will not be exposed to it in scool
[19:10] Pertinax Greggan: A cosmology based on the tribal mythology of a bunch of itinerate, Bronze-Age goatherders...
[19:10] Birric Forcella: You can decide if you want to pick a certain point - or if I should start with point 1
[19:10] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Is there suposed to be sound?
[19:10] Jerome Roddenham: If there indeed is intelligent design, i don't think it could have happened like it is being told in the bible. imho
[19:10] Noemi Ahren: No, Margaret
[19:10] Birric Forcella: Or if you want to start
[19:11] Elizabeth Spieler: challenge evolution hmmm is that possible ? can you define what evolution means to you ?
[19:11] Worgen Hokkigai: evolution has been challanged so much we know more about it then gravity
[19:11] Birric Forcella: Well, ID was devised to be scientifically and intellecturally strong enough to withstand a challenge from Evolution.
[19:11] Worgen Hokkigai: its not tho
[19:11] Birric Forcella: It purposely leaves out things like 6 day-creation and floods
[19:12] Birric Forcella: Or Adam's ribs
[19:12] Elizabeth Spieler: we don't know anything about gravity except that it exists and gets weak in the freezing parts of earth
[19:12] Blonde Starsmith: We know nothing of gravity in my opinion and evolution is just a syalized senquene of events
[19:12] Worgen Hokkigai: it was designed to fool thoes that dont pay attention so that it seems like it might be strong enough to challange evolution but its not
[19:12] Elizabeth Spieler: the Morgan horse evolved 100 years ago - google it
[19:12] Birric Forcella: However, ID takes as point of departure the commonsense impression that there is design in this universe - and it tries to show that there MUST be design
[19:12] Elizabeth Spieler: but what is evolving?
[19:12] Randi Grigorovich: Birric there is nothing scientific about a science based on Mythology
[19:13] Elizabeth Spieler: evolution is in the bible : / so forgive me I need clarification
[19:13] Xeno Octavia: what is design??
[19:13] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Isnt everything evolving and changing
[19:13] Cosmic Parx: To observe what one thinks is design, and then conclude that it must be design based on the observation ... kinda begs the question :)
[19:13] Birric Forcella: Well, ID takes out the mythology and challenges the idea that "something came from nothing."
[19:13] Jerome Roddenham: There could be something like intelligent design at the beginning of the universe. But certainly not the way Christians claim it to be
[19:13] Birric Forcella: Evolution makes the claim that things evolved out of thin air.
[19:14] Elizabeth Spieler: makes no sense to say there was ever nothing ????
[19:14] Noemi Ahren: So does religion
[19:14] Blonde Starsmith: and they do
[19:14] Blonde Starsmith: science has proven life evolves out of lifelessness
[19:14] Jerome Roddenham: No evolution doesn't claim things came out of thin air
[19:14] Elizabeth Spieler: Nirric I heard it was something that did a big bang
[19:14] Blonde Starsmith: studies in Mexico and reproduced elsewhere
[19:14] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Mabie there was always something that just keeps evolving
[19:14] Xeno Octavia: what is intelligent??
[19:14] Noemi Ahren: It had to start SOMEWHERE.... someWHEN
[19:14] Birric Forcella: Well, there was a time when there were no eyes in animals - or no opposing thumbs - or no good brains. - Where did that come from, if it was not designed by somebody
[19:15] Elizabeth Spieler: a baby evolves to old age . . if it doesn't die
[19:15] BrainCrave OHare: birric - to your first challange, i suggest this: science is a process trying to determine how reality works. It is not necesssary for science to solve a problem and/or have predictive value for it to be considered science - only that the scientific method is used. for example, cold fusion is the study of nuclear fusion of atoms at room temperature. no one has yet proven that cold fusion works. that does not mean that the study of cold fusion isn't science. evolution uses the scientific method to discover it through logical inferences; ergo, it's science
[19:15] Randi Grigorovich: i am passionate about this To me intellegent design was created in order to replace science with mythology
[19:15] Birric Forcella: How would you answer the simple challenge that if you see a watch - you can assume that there is a watchmaker.
[19:15] Myriam Brianna: That is no challenge
[19:15] Lucien Velinov: ^
[19:15] Blonde Starsmith: i believe it was developed as a step toward the unity of science and religion
[19:15] Jerome Roddenham: Birric even the watch evolved over centuries
[19:15] Lucien Velinov: I actually wrote the rebuttal...just hadn't distributed it
[19:16] Elizabeth Spieler: only in thinking of beginning and end is it required by the thinker to have one - we have no evidence that is the case
[19:16] Jerome Roddenham: Staring in what is now iraq
[19:16] Birric Forcella: Well, Brain, in that case ID would have to qualify as science.
[19:17] Birric Forcella: If you want to claim that evolution holds, then you have to come up with some proofs which HOLD for evolution but FAIL for Intelligent Design
[19:17] Jerome Roddenham: it could birric but so far it hasn't produced much substantial things and still wants to force it down people's throats
[19:17] Cosmic Parx: The Wath implying a watchmaker is another example of begging the question. Not to mention that it gives a lot of weight to personal incredulity ... "Golly, I can't imagine anything OTHER than a watchmaker doing that!"
[19:17] Myriam Brianna: it doesn't, because it puts a null-answer at the (arbitrarily chosen) end of any research. What prevents me from saying: "The designer did it in his wisdom, case closed"?
[19:17] Freemason Magic: well i have a question about the first statement
[19:17] Freemason Magic: what is SCIENCE?
[19:17] Worgen Hokkigai: thats been defined
[19:17] Elizabeth Spieler: it's to much of a riddle for me - evolution would be intelligently designed
[19:17] Xeno Octavia: who design3ed the designer
[19:17] BrainCrave OHare: @birric, and from wki - definition of scientific method: The scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.
[19:17] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: whatever hes trying to define as credible lol
[19:17] Blonde Starsmith: depends on who's peer reviewing the work as to what is science
[19:18] Worgen Hokkigai: what is the point of this discussion?
[19:18] Freemason Magic: i disagree with that definition
[19:18] Birric Forcella: Well, Brain Crave, in that case Evolution fails according to my four points
[19:18] Xeno Octavia: dont we all
[19:18] Jerome Roddenham: Doesn't see anything in braincrave's explanation about forcing it on people like the Christians do
[19:18] Elizabeth Spieler: we know in the freezing portions of the earth - where people are looking for a better way of Life - UFO's appear
[19:18] Worgen Hokkigai: ugh, this is pointless
[19:19] Freemason Magic: to me Science is the Universe
[19:19] Noemi Ahren: nothing is pointless... it always pays to hear all sides
[19:19] Freemason Magic: we are just man
[19:19] Jerome Roddenham: Science is the quest to gather knowledge
[19:19] Freemason Magic: we cannot be scientific
[19:19] Birric Forcella: We have two competing ways of explaining the same thing. Now we are trying to find out how to decide between those two ways
[19:19] Freemason Magic: at all
[19:19] Blonde Starsmith: I thought science was a process
[19:19] Cosmic Parx: It's good to hear all sides, but nearly impossible to hear all side simultaneously.
[19:19] Xeno Octavia: 1. Evolution cannot qualify as science because it has no predictive value
Predictive value is for small parameters of 'hard' sciences not the narrative within historical context
of 'softer' sciences. As Stephen Jay Gould said in his book 'wonderful Life':
"How should scientists operate when they must try to explain the result of history,
those inordinately complex events that can occur but once in detailed glory? Many large domains
of nature -cosmology, geology, and evolution among them-must be studied with the tools of
history. The appropriate methods focus on narrative, not experiment as usually conceived."
[19:20] Worgen Hokkigai: all that shows is that you have a poor understanding of science
[19:20] Xeno Octavia: And as expanded [clarified] by Per Bak in his book 'How Nature Works':
"We must learn to free ourselves from seeing things the way they are! A radical scientific view,
indeed! If, following traditional scientific methods, we concentrate on an accurate description
of the details, we lose perspective. A theory of life is likely to be a theory of a process, not a
detailed account of utterly accidental details of that process, such as the emergence of humans."
2. There has never been an observed case of speciation
[19:20] Freemason Magic: Xeno agrees then man cannot be scientidic
[19:20] Freemason Magic: what we consider science is mainly a business
[19:20] Xeno Octavia: only if he's a freemason
[19:20] Jerome Roddenham: ir isn't
[19:20] Freemason Magic: control by man
[19:20] Frederick Hansome: Evolutionaty theory does not claim speciaton
[19:20] Jerome Roddenham: it*
[19:21] Birric Forcella: Xeno, that would make Gould merely one voice- and not a strong one. Gould actually tried to give religion a wide berth. If you are telling me that the question cannot be dedided - well, then there is nothing to keep me from believing in ID?
[19:21] Jerome Roddenham: You can believe as you please.
[19:21] Desire Guru: But the real question is: Is computer science really science?
[19:21] Elizabeth Spieler: duality of human thought does not exist in the process of Life - as life has not at any time been recorded to end in total destruction
[19:21] Jerome Roddenham: But until now the evolution team is winning the race
[19:22] Xeno Octavia: 2. There has never been an observed case of speciation
The narrative of fossilized history is able to see many observations of speciation if not obscured
by biblical phantasy.
[19:22] phillip1882 Arabello: birric, sorry i havent spoken sooner, but i wanted to adress youyr four points in a logical way
[19:22] Dyanna Saxmundham: nothing keeps you from believing in it regardless . . . which has always been my question about id proponents. why insist on having id/creationism recognized as "science"?
[19:22] Freemason Magic: Im a computer scientist
[19:22] Freemason Magic: and my answer is not
[19:22] Worgen Hokkigai: they want ID recognised as science so it can be taught in school to make children more stupid
[19:22] Freemason Magic: computer science is a business
[19:22] Birric Forcella: Xeno, those are nice words - but that is not scientific. All you are stating are hopes - you HOPE that science works that way. It does NOT. Either you can decide something or you can't.
[19:22] Freemason Magic: control by man
[19:22] Desire Guru: ahhh a business
[19:22] phillip1882 Arabello: first to your point about evolution not prdicting the future:
[19:22] Freemason Magic: to profit
[19:23] Lucien Velinov: To the extent that any future events can be predicted, an evolutionary path can be predicted.
Understand that predictive value isn't a defining trait that determines what is or isn't science. Predictive value is a basis by which understanding of a concept is measured - consistent, expected results through controled experimentation. Repeatable.
[19:23] Freemason Magic: and benefit somepeople who are interested in that field
[19:23] phillip1882 Arabello: well first, we neeed to establich that evolution gives a good picture of the past
[19:23] Lucien Velinov: Biology courses that focus on genetics explore this in elaborate detail through the breeding of generations of fruit flies to bring about results that are both expected, and appropriately accounted for otherwise.
[19:23] Xeno Octavia: 3. Evolution is not falsifiable
But ID is easily falsified as well as false.
[19:23] Desire Guru: is suspect that being a business was not even considered at the advent of comuter science
[19:23] phillip1882 Arabello: that s that we have lots of evidance that suggests evolution is capable of occuring
[19:23] Elizabeth Spieler: astrology is repeated science
[19:23] Jerome Roddenham: Would love to see some dinosaurs in the christian bible
[19:23] Lucien Velinov: To predict evolution to anything beyond "very broad and trivial limits" (predicting evolutionary paths of pathogens isn't trivial, but hey that's just my opinion) requires extensive knowledge of the future events that weigh upon the myriad of variables that pressure toward or against significant changes.
Evolution Theory's inability to predict the future doesn't disqualify it as science.
[19:23] phillip1882 Arabello: to the point about it not being falsifiable
[19:24] Cosmic Parx: "Predictive value" *sounds* as if it should only mean an ability to foresee the future based on current data. However, evolution can have predictive value when looking into the past. We can, through hypotheses derived from evolutionary theory, make predictions about what we should discover in the fossil record ... and, in fact, evolutionists have frequently made such predictions and been right (e.g., ambulocetus, the footed whale). So -- predictions about what we'll find int he future ABOUT THE PAST fulfill the requirement that evolution be predictive.
[19:24] Elizabeth Spieler: Jerome Gen 6
[19:24] Worgen Hokkigai: astrology is bs, astronomy is good stuff
[19:24] Xeno Octavia: 4. The origin of life itself poses a huge problem for evolution.
The origin is not a problem --it obviously IS. But intellectually explaining is a problem.
even defining its origin is a problem and assuming that it has origin is a problem
-- do check out Carl R. Woese on 'Evolution of Cells'
[19:24] phillip1882 Arabello: well if we had no historal record of speices prior to human exitance
[19:24] phillip1882 Arabello: ]then this would be evidance of ID
[19:24] Jerome Roddenham: Agrees with philip
[19:24] Birric Forcella: No, prediction is just that - saying what will happen. However in evolution NOTHING really can be predicted. If science cannot predict something then it is not science. You know where and when a stone will fall when you throw it - and it does it every time.
[19:25] Cosmic Parx: Evolution can predict future fossil finds, then
[19:25] Elizabeth Spieler: yes Birric
[19:25] Freemason Magic: the only Science is the universe itself
[19:25] Freemason Magic: we are just thinkers
[19:25] Lucien Velinov: That isn't quite true, Birric.
[19:25] Birric Forcella: You are making exactly my point, Cosmic - All you do in Evolution is
[19:25] Freemason Magic: egocentric by nature
[19:25] Birric Forcella: retrodict
[19:25] Lucien Velinov: Then again, it ignores the case of my rebuttal
[19:25] Jerome Roddenham: Evolution can predict what features of the human race will change in adaptation to a changing environment
[19:26] Elizabeth Spieler: we do not know how many births it took for the morgan horse to evolve to it's newness 100 years ago, but no doubt it did occur
[19:26] Cosmic Parx: Then Birric, allow me to turn it around -- does the science of Chemistry predict the future of all chemical reactions?
[19:26] Freemason Magic: we develop ideas and we want to lead the world
[19:26] Freemason Magic: with then
[19:26] Birric Forcella: All you do in evolution is retrodict - and the effect of that is that whatever happened MUST have been evolution - it CAN't have been ID - can't it? So all you do is prove your prejudices in a circular fashion
[19:26] phillip1882 Arabello: we may not be able to predict what exactly will evolve but we can prdict how it will evolve
[19:26] Enzo Stratten: What about the common sense?
[19:26] Freemason Magic: is just a game
[19:26] Elizabeth Spieler: some speculate that balto was a evolved dog, but the breeder neutered him thinking he was a defect : /
[19:26] Freemason Magic: at the end human dont know nothing
[19:27] Xeno Octavia:
On the evolution of cells
Carl R. Woese June 25, 2002 PNAS Vol 99, p8742-8747
A theory for the evolution of cellular organization is presented. The model is based on the (data supported) conjecture that the dynamic of horizontal gene transfer (HGT) is primarily determined by the organization of the recipient cell. Aboriginal cell designs are taken to be simple and loosely organized enough that all cellular componentry can be altered and/or displaced through HGT, making HGT the principal driving force in early cellular evolution. Primitive cells did not carry a stable organismal genealogical trace. Primitive cellular evolution is basically communal. The high level of novelty required to evolve cell designs is a product of communal invention, of the universal HGT field, not intralineage variation. It is the community as a whole, the ecosystem, which evolves. The individual cell designs that evolved in this way are nevertheless fundamentally distinct, because the initial conditions in each case are
[19:27] Jerome Roddenham: Birricj can i hear points toward ID instead of points against evolution?
[19:27] Birric Forcella: No, Chemistry does not predict all reactions - though in principle it does.
[19:27] Xeno Octavia: somewhat different. As a cell design becomes more complex and interconnected a critical point is reached where a more integrated cellular organization emerges, and vertically generated novelty can and does assume greater importance. This critical point is called the "Darwinian Threshold" for the reasons given.
[19:27] Lucien Velinov: Address my rebuttal if you would. That is a clear and gross ignorance of the application of evolution theory in modern science, Birric.
[19:27] Cosmic Parx: I quit. It's far too difficult in this type of discourse to follow or even make any significant points. I predict it will fail to evolve into meaningful discussion in the end.
[19:28] Birric Forcella: Okay, the cell article - I don't understand what it proves.
[19:28] phillip1882 Arabello: as to not observing seiciation, this is probably the only strong argument you have for ID in my opinion
[19:28] Myriam Brianna signs Cosmic's statement
[19:28] Lucien Velinov: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
[19:28] Worgen Hokkigai: having any kind of a meaningful conversation here is pretty pointless
[19:28] Elizabeth Spieler: humans have been born with tails
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: good night every one i need to rest
[19:28] Lucien Velinov: next, lol
[19:28] Elizabeth Spieler: two headed girls
[19:28] Nathalia Schmooz: A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical - ID clearly struggles in this area
[19:29] Elizabeth Spieler: is that not a evolving process?
[19:29] Birric Forcella: Jerome - FOR ID - very simply - it is the only explanation for structured organisms. So far nobody here has addressed HOW evolution would work. All you have said is that it DOES work and that this or that is evolution. I can easily show that the same things MUST be designed - including the primitive cells
[19:29] Xeno Octavia: read the actual artic Birric is used by both sides since ends up agree /disaggeeing with Darwin
[19:29] Lucien Velinov: The fact remains that, even if we assume the whole of evolutionary theory to be false....ID does not stand on any merit to be proven true.
[19:29] Birric Forcella: I can't follow the whole discussion
[19:29] Elizabeth Spieler: I believe Darwin is mistquoted 95% of the time
[19:30] Jerome Roddenham: Nope scientists have proven that cells can evolve and become more intricate even combine and build larger structures with more functions
[19:30] Lucien Velinov: Just read that and be done with it, lol.
[19:30] phillip1882 Arabello: yeah it hard with so many poeple talking at one
[19:30] Lucien Velinov: anyone else want my rebuttal note?
[19:30] Elizabeth Spieler: Birric so far we can't make dirt
[19:30] Birric Forcella: I think point 1 is stronger than the speciation point. Since if you say (and MUST say) that anything that appears is evolution - then you clearly have not explained ANYTHING
[19:30] Nathalia Schmooz: sure Lucien
[19:30] Elizabeth Spieler: Birric basically we make nothing but stories : /
[19:30] Frederick Hansome: Yes, Lucein...your note, please
[19:31] Jerome Roddenham: I say that it is proven that cells can evolve into something more intricate
[19:31] Xeno Octavia: yes Liz exactly
[19:31] Birric Forcella: The argument for ID - to make this clear again - is that it provides an EXPLANATION. Evolution argues that things just happen out of thin air. Now has any one of you a grasp of how evolution considers that to happen?
[19:31] Worgen Hokkigai: darwin doesnt matter anymore, he was big in coming up with the theory but we have a much better understanding of evolution then he could ever hope for
[19:32] Rue Moonwall: The question really is, what does evolution holds for us in the future?
[19:32] Freemason Magic: dont confuse Scientific with an obsesive observant of a natural phenomenos
[19:32] Birric Forcella: Remember - evolution CANNOT have any intended design behind it - so where do the stuctures come from?
[19:32] Xeno Octavia: jer u are not dealing with the actual content which has at least 3 starts to cellular evo
[19:32] Elizabeth Spieler: umm there is no new water on the planet, it's constant recylced - eewww fishies swim in their toilet
[19:32] Jerome Roddenham: It doesn't explain anything nore than forcing the idea through our throats that ID is the only way.
[19:32] Birric Forcella: Please, Worgen, tell me your better explanations.
[19:32] Elizabeth Spieler: water is 13,000 years old
[19:32] Jerome Roddenham: No arguments for it, only against evolution.
[19:32] Elizabeth Spieler: let that twist your brain laughs
[19:32] Rue Moonwall: Remember we are not finish evolving
[19:33] Rue Moonwall: so what does evolution holds for us in the futurre
[19:33] Xeno Octavia: when will it have next BD party then
[19:33] Jerome Roddenham: Look at your smallest toe
[19:33] Jambo Voyager: It promises more chaos.
[19:33] Elizabeth Spieler: water is the same today as it was 13,000 years ago
[19:33] Worgen Hokkigai: Im bairly keeping up with this conversation, it seems like there are 4 diffrent arguments going on at the same time and when you factor in masterbation, Im only arguing stuff between squirts
[19:33] Blonde Starsmith: lol
[19:33] Jambo Voyager: LOLO
[19:33] Dyanna Saxmundham: lol
[19:33] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: LOL
[19:33] Rue Moonwall: jWe are evolving as we text
[19:33] Nathalia Schmooz: Intelligent Design also indicates some kind of aim for an "ideal" species - life doesn't seem to reflect this - all seems very haphazard
[19:33] Birric Forcella: I am asking a very simple question: Does any of you want to explain HOW evolution works?
[19:33] Susy Halcali: Worgen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[19:33] Blonde Starsmith: ty Worgen great point
[19:33] Elizabeth Spieler: Worgen you get a prize for making me bust out in laughter
[19:33] Frederick Hansome: The expressions we make are a reflection of our beliefs. Our beliefs can be based on faith alone for the IDers or on emperical evidence as do the evolutionists
[19:33] Myriam Brianna: the explanation ID provides is a non-explanation, sorry. And your question towards evolution is pure GIGO, - Garbage In, Garbage Out.
[19:34] Jerome Roddenham: I tried Birric but you ignored it
[19:34] Worgen Hokkigai: I win arguing
[19:34] Blonde Starsmith: HOW is not even a sensible question.
[19:34] Elizabeth Spieler: let's examine the SEED shall we ? under a microscope it has no beginning and no end
[19:34] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: im just smokin n watchin ^-^
[19:34] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: thats some heavy shit
[19:34] Birric Forcella: Nathalia - life needs a lot of organization - from eyes to hearts to fingernails - it DOES suggest a plan
[19:34] Rue Moonwall: Evolution works by the genetic code co-acting with the enviroment
[19:34] Rue Moonwall: Co-scripting
[19:35] Desire Guru: clearly the chicken came before the egg
[19:35] Blonde Starsmith: maybe
[19:35] Jerome Roddenham: it has been proven that cells can change/adapt even work together and form iintircate networks
[19:35] Elizabeth Spieler: environment causes dna to react
[19:35] Birric Forcella: Well, Myriam, I appreciate that you are such a strong and good believer - but now, do you have an argument, too?
[19:35] Jerome Roddenham: intricate
[19:35] Elizabeth Spieler: the plague great example
[19:35] Worgen Hokkigai: life only seems like it needs oginization untill you look at it closely, we arnt an individual, we are made up of many diffrent ogranisms that work together
[19:35] Freemason Magic: if there is true in Science why they are people who claim we are going into Global Warming and others think we actually going into global cooling
[19:35] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: hmm if evolutions true when are women going to stop growing hair on their legs
[19:35] Blonde Starsmith: it's the money and fear
[19:35] Nathalia Schmooz: Birric - eyes hearts fingernails are fit for purpose only and evolve according to need
[19:35] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: ahhh manbearpig!!!
[19:35] Rue Moonwall: Right Exizabeth but enviroment doensnt work alone, other wise we would be like must other animals
[19:35] Elizabeth Spieler: freemason - it's colder here : ))
[19:36] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue yes it's ruled by the stars as we learn in the study - ancient science - of the stars above us
[19:36] Miyam Letov: hi Birric *smiles* i usually listen for a while before i dive into a discussion
[19:36] Myriam Brianna: I have put forward my argument. Your question was nonsensical, it does not apply to the Theory of Evolution but to an effigy of it, by your own making. Please, read up what the Theory of Evolution actually is and then attack it
[19:36] Blonde Starsmith: And science shows the entire solar system is in a warming trned... not man made
[19:36] Birric Forcella: Yes, I agree - all these things have been shown to happen - but now, HOW do they happen - haphazardly or by design. If haphazardly, then explain please how all this structure around us comes about
[19:36] Elizabeth Spieler: it is the moon that drives the tide of the ocean
[19:37] Jerome Roddenham: You ignored my explanation again. probably because it doesn't fit your ideas
[19:37] Elizabeth Spieler: water repells magnetism
[19:37] Elizabeth Spieler: land attracts it
[19:37] Worgen Hokkigai: you better have something to back up that blonde
[19:37] Nathalia Schmooz: by genetic development
[19:37] Jambo Voyager: Here's one: driver sleepiness is being selected against. Not only does it endager the driver, but also the passengers, who are likely to be genetically related to the driver.
[19:37] Elizabeth Spieler: maybe we should be studying the magnetic field ? which seems to decide it all
[19:37] Blonde Starsmith: I see about a referce I read on NASA website
[19:37] Birric Forcella: Myriam, all yo have shown is that you don't have an argument - but you are a firm believer in evolution. The Pope is looking for people like you.
[19:37] Xeno Octavia: yes blonde --sun going into slow nova
[19:37] Enzo Stratten: Theres a theory called Gaia, that planets are like cells for a galaxy, and galaxys are organs for universes, and universes evolve like we have done in this planet.. It has passed predictive tests.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
[19:37] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth to some extent the enviroment plays a roll along with our genetic predisposition,
[19:37] Blonde Starsmith: but having a hard time speed reading
[19:37] Blonde Starsmith: I am not prepared to cut and paste
[19:38] Jambo Voyager: The sun will be getting warmer over, gradually, over the next few billion yeasr.
[19:38] Jerome Roddenham: Birrick, is it so difficult to respond to points that are made that are valid?
[19:38] Desire Guru: isn't it something that urth and Gor are in the same orbit around the sun
[19:38] Birric Forcella: What is "genetic development." You are all going around the issue. Nobody denies that there IS development. The question is HOW it happened.
[19:38] Jerome Roddenham: Instead of pnly arguing?
[19:38] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue indeed we seem to be a garden of sorts - high thinking ant hills being very productive in moving here and there
[19:38] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth many a times the genetic predispositon trancent the enviroment, such as man has no wings but yet he mananges to fly
[19:39] Worgen Hokkigai: everyone knows that global warming is caused by moon men throwing fire at the earth
[19:39] Elizabeth Spieler: oh indeed rue perhaps I was misunderstood
[19:39] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: even i knew that, al gore orderd them to do it!
[19:39] Birric Forcella: Jerome, I am not saying ID is the only way - what I am asking for is some arguments which allow you to discern/decide between ID and Evolution
[19:39] Nathalia Schmooz: Genetics is an accepted science - we develop according to needs in order to survive
[19:39] Elizabeth Spieler: Darwin said it was plants animals and man - bible matches - I see no argument . . .giggles ./ . pets my puppy Shasta
[19:39] Susy Halcali: and light is liquid sunshine poured by the Gods through holes in the sky
[19:39] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth man can now change the enviroment itself
[19:39] Miyam Letov: um...Birric..nice insult for a fifth grader...please do not presume to know anythign about me simply because you have read my profile
[19:39] Worgen Hokkigai: its all part of a massive consperiacy to use up all the fire on the moon and make oild worth more
[19:40] Jerome Roddenham: Birrick, if you are not upto replying my points. Give us your points why i should believe in ID istead of evolution? And not the points against evolution please?
[19:40] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue I don't believe that
[19:40] Birric Forcella: Why don't you go back to the 4 points?
[19:40] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue man thinks it can
[19:40] Myriam Brianna: I think she aimed that at me, Miyam ;)
[19:40] BrainCrave OHare: just because something is theoretically non-falsifiable does not mean that it is, in fact, falsifiable. in the case of evolution, it is not practically falsifiable
[19:40] Birric Forcella: You are arguing for things I don't disagree with mainly.
[19:40] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth we can make water put out of the desert
[19:40] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue but so far life would simply evolve again and again because the Universe is the womb
[19:40] Worgen Hokkigai: FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
[19:40] Miyam Letov: and for the record....genetic adaptatoin doesn't occur simply because we don't need ot use something..which is why women still have to shave their legs
[19:40] Jambo Voyager: These arguments don't fit into one-liners. Sorry people!
[19:41] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue there is no New water on the planet
[19:41] Jambo Voyager: Wrong forum.
[19:41] Birric Forcella: Jerome, I have looked back trying to find your point. I must have missed it. I can't read everything.
[19:41] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth the earth is the mother planet
[19:41] Elizabeth Spieler: were all floating on a rock in space of we can't even fathom how large
[19:41] Jerome Roddenham: Cells evolve because of their surroundings and changing purposes that is proven
[19:41] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue labels often are meant to be helpful but in gender they can be hurtful
[19:41] Birric Forcella: What does that mean The Universe is the womb?" - Who put it there? Who made it the womb? Who generated the laws of the Womb?
[19:41] Frederick Hansome: The theory of evolution is easily falsifiable
[19:41] Jerome Roddenham: They can weave intricate intelligent networks
[19:42] Lucien Velinov: anyone else want the note? if not my work is done here
[19:42] Elizabeth Spieler: Birric I refer to the evolution story of the atom in the bible
[19:42] Rue Moonwall: What are you talking about labels? gender?
[19:42] BrainCrave OHare: @frederick - the evidence that supports creation is falsifiable (e.g., you could try to prove that gorillas didn't share similar genetics codes as humans)
[19:42] Elizabeth Spieler: two adams - ATOM and then ADAM
[19:42] Miyam Letov: it works because of breeding...those that are more adapted ot an environment survive to breed and pass on the genes
[19:42] Frederick Hansome: Simply finding a fossel in the wrong strata would falsify evolution
[19:42] Xeno Octavia: Birric ---#WHO???
[19:42] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: anyone believe good and evil arnt completly indoctrined feelings and think there might be a hint of ad there?
[19:43] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: im not on either side of the fence im just sayin
[19:43] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue you called earth mother - she could very easily be in a conceptual metaphor as father - hence my point on gender words for labels
[19:43] Birric Forcella: Jerome, I stated that "design" is a perfectly good explanation for structure - from a watch to an eye. You need to show some arguments if you want to put that explanation out of business.
[19:43] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth nothing wrong with calling earth the mother planet
[19:43] Miyam Letov: however...it is a far cry from producing living amino acids in an experiment to producing a complex organism
[19:43] Miyam Letov: when we speak of evolution
[19:43] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue I did not say there was anything wrong with it - I said it's confusing
[19:44] Jerome Roddenham: No Birric. Just like all creationist you just bash evolution and don't present any sensible proof of creationism. It is always like that.
[19:44] Elizabeth Spieler: because when you apply a gender you see a WOMAN or a MAN
[19:44] Rue Moonwall: Mother planet, actually gives the earth a life, a personality,
[19:44] Birric Forcella: However, Jerome, this was the point of this discussion and my Challenge - to put these claims of evolution into question and to see if you can defend them. Apparently nobody here can.
[19:44] Blonde Starsmith: Natural evolution is indefensible..
[19:44] Blonde Starsmith: cause no one knows for sure anyway
[19:44] Jerome Roddenham: I did. Currently scientists are creating organs out of simple cells with no intelligence whatsoever
[19:44] Elizabeth Spieler: ok Rue it's your dream - feel free to label it anything you like - but for others to understand and relate you might have some trouble was my only point
[19:45] Miyam Letov: biological adaptatoin has been proven, birric
[19:45] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: creationism depends on faith and faith is blind but can it throw any doubt of creationism out the window?
[19:45] BrainCrave OHare: putting aside whether or not the examples claiming speciation actually are speciation, to not be able to visualize speciation does make it a theoretical exercise. but the theory is still based on scientific facts. of course, that doesn't prove it's correct or even that the logic is correct, but ID is not based on the scientific method. ergo, though it might be wrong, it does not suffer from being non-scientific.
[19:45] Jerome Roddenham: So nature has done that all on its own
[19:45] Xeno Octavia: so this whole gab is just an intellectual hed trip!!
[19:45] Elizabeth Spieler: Jerome not from scratch
[19:45] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: wouldent be a debate if it did
[19:45] Blonde Starsmith: adaptation is not evolution to things like us at the top of this tree
[19:45] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: i call an arguement stalemateeee
[19:45] Nathalia Schmooz: Natural evolution has more scientific basis than any other explanation I have seen
[19:45] Elizabeth Spieler: Jerome we can manipulate the atoms that already exist - we can't make new ones
[19:45] Blonde Starsmith: there are forces unmeasurable I believe
[19:45] Jerome Roddenham: As i said before. ID is possible but has no proof to it whatsoever
[19:46] Blonde Starsmith: and it's our egocentric thinking that keeps us stock in GREAT DEBATES as opposed to thoughtful contemplation
[19:46] Elizabeth Spieler: word choices are vital in this type of conversation . . giggles . . anyone got a candy bar?
[19:46] Miyam Letov: that is where science takes a leap of faith, too. blonde
[19:46] Elizabeth Spieler: I prefer chocolate
[19:46] Nathalia Schmooz: yes without proof its just another school of thought and merely that
[19:46] Miyam Letov: it is just as much a leap of faith as creationism
[19:46] Jerome Roddenham: it isn't
[19:46] Elizabeth Spieler: did anything change after you buried dead people ? did life end ? did anything evolve?
[19:46] Miyam Letov: it isn't because you say it isn't, jerome?
[19:47] Blonde Starsmith: "Modern" science seems to be based on egocentism which stangles thought and innovation
[19:47] Rue Moonwall: Eliabeth thats sily, so what shuld I called it instead of the generalized term "mother planet" maybe be you like me to say better, the planet ocean in wich 6 billions inhabiting and anymals live? By those terms i'll never will finish typing
[19:47] Birric Forcella: Jerome, sure cells evolve in response to their environment - but the question is HOW? Are they DESIGNED FOR their environment - or do they evolve without any plan. The Design, on the face of it, seems far more plausible. So where are the arguments for evolution then?
[19:47] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: i think were a lil too special to be caused by a rock exploding but at the same time an all and powerfull god would most likely make himself a little more apparently known
[19:47] Miyam Letov: there is that "science as religion" that we seem to have developed into. sad, really
[19:47] Elizabeth Spieler: after using weed and feed on your lawn - did the weeds ever come back ?
[19:47] Jerome Roddenham: There is more validity at the moment through finds to evolution than to id
[19:47] Elizabeth Spieler: has anyone actually tried to kill grass?
[19:47] BrainCrave OHare: @birric re: #1 - what might be considered random mutation to us now might later be discovered to not be random. for example, we know that the sun can cause mutations (e.g., cancer). there might have been astronomical events that caused certain mutations to form human features that we cannot discover or prove as they may not ever be observable in our lifetimes.
[19:47] Nathalia Schmooz: modern science simply stuggles because of funding
[19:47] Elizabeth Spieler: it's near impossible you know
[19:47] Blonde Starsmith: ID is based on an innate understanding that we are not alone and are guilded.
[19:47] Elizabeth Spieler: the seeds blow in the wind everywhere
[19:47] Blonde Starsmith: I beleive this two ideologies need to meet in the middle.
[19:48] Blonde Starsmith: both are correct and incorrect
[19:48] Nathalia Schmooz: that is not my "innate" understanding
[19:48] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: lol isnt that the same solution american failed programs have nathalia?
[19:48] Rue Moonwall: Eliabeth language is made to compress data, so we generalized,
[19:48] Birric Forcella: Of course animals and plants are adapted - or they would not survive - but HOW were they adapted - by design or by randomness?
[19:48] Nathalia Schmooz: yes Rob hehehe
[19:48] Elizabeth Spieler: Rob I don't think there is some dude out there in space calling the shots from a private cushy space ship
[19:48] Blonde Starsmith: There are no accidents
[19:48] Jerome Roddenham: I agree that id is possible but there is more validity to evolution at the moment
[19:48] Myriam Brianna facepaws
[19:48] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: no way
[19:48] Blonde Starsmith: and what happens is more then mere causality I believe
[19:49] Elizabeth Spieler: Rob to believe that we then have to make thoughts appear outside us - sorry we all lose on that one - can't be done
[19:49] Nathalia Schmooz: accidents would not fit with "survival" theory
[19:49] Xeno Octavia: when u say design Birric whay are u not saying by designer
[19:49] Maddie Margulis: ID is not possible.
[19:49] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: you dont understand liz we have to evolve
[19:49] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: science needss more fundinggg
[19:49] Blonde Starsmith: To dicuss a designer... would be like a grain of sand contemplating a mountain
[19:49] Elizabeth Spieler: lol rob
[19:49] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth we project images out side of our head,
[19:49] Ceri Barrymore: why can't we evolve by design?
[19:49] Birric Forcella: Brain, that is besides the point. No matter what caused the mutuations, it does not decide the question if there was design (behind the actions of the sun, for instance) or if it happened randomly.
[19:49] Elizabeth Spieler: let's cure cancer : /
[19:50] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: beacuse women still grow hair on there legs ceri
[19:50] Blonde Starsmith: easir I believe
[19:50] Nathalia Schmooz: yes science needs funding in ares that matter fo thr greater good - not just for big corporations to make more cash
[19:50] Xeno Octavia: when we say ID are we using it in freudian sense??
[19:50] Maddie Margulis: to evolve by design would require a designer, and there isn't one.
[19:50] Blonde Starsmith: Pharm plot to sell razors
[19:50] BrainCrave OHare: fair point birric
[19:50] Miyam Letov: what is this hair fascination that you have, rob?
[19:50] Miyam Letov: it proves nothing
[19:50] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth the mind edits, then projects an image out side the head, unto the object
[19:50] Nathalia Schmooz: we grow hair on out legs because we love waxing
[19:50] Blonde Starsmith: we don't know that
[19:50] Ceri Barrymore: i was born without an apendix or tonsils, as was my mother, did i evolve or was it by design?
[19:50] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: lol who called it a fascination
[19:50] Elizabeth Spieler: maddie in my research the ship is empty : /
[19:50] Jerome Roddenham: design by default. nature learns what doesn't work and stop producing it
[19:50] Maddie Margulis: I know there is no designer. I am really good at extrapolating and logic.
[19:50] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: im only using it for an analogy and yes i could be a little more creative
[19:50] Nathalia Schmooz: wow you have evolved Ceri - a great being ;-))
[19:51] Miyam Letov: if women could only survive by having hairless legs..then in future generations...women would eventually not have hair on their legs
[19:51] Desire Guru: Please explain to me , dear evolutionists- why there is anything at all- or if you like- how--- what did everything evolve from
[19:51] Lucien Velinov: The fact is, the mechanisms are understood without the need of a designer. The end.
[19:51] Myriam Brianna: Birric, we humans have a dislike for certain scents. Why is that? Because we are the children of a long line of creatures that avoided these scents, because they are often a sign of harm to mammals like us. For example the products of anaerobic metabolisms, like you find them in rotting flesh (they _are_ the "rotting"). The adaption happened in these creates surviving because they (by chance) had a dislike and were able to reproduce
[19:51] Kollette Unplugged tends to listen to Miyam
[19:51] Ceri Barrymore: Native american indians don't have hair on their legs
[19:51] Lucien Velinov: Neither did native Africans.
[19:51] Myriam Brianna: so, yes. It is randomness. But the results aren't random
[19:51] Jerome Roddenham: Some middle americans have their bodies covered in hair
[19:51] Birric Forcella: Maddie, I appreciate your full-throated belief that there is no designer - but then, I was asking for any arguments or mechanisms with which evolution could work without a designer
[19:51] Rue Moonwall: Lucien is called the wisdom of the genetic code
[19:52] Blonde Starsmith: Who cares about biological progression by what ever method. The big science is why are our intelligence and cognitive skills increasing rapidly
[19:52] Elizabeth Spieler: my research "ship" is found in the Emerald City castle on my rental sim of the Marvelous Land of Oz on my picks through tomorrow : )
[19:52] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: so with them must lie the secret to hairless legs...
[19:52] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: say what did they use in their bonfires...
[19:52] Susy Halcali: oooo, it's so nice there, I just went, noticed it on your picks
[19:52] Rue Moonwall: LUcient only our humanitic genetic code can understand mechanism
[19:52] Jerome Roddenham: people stumble on discoveries anytime. So does nature
[19:52] Rue Moonwall: no
[19:52] Birric Forcella: Lucien, I can't answer your points in this space. I hope this discussion will go on and this was only the beginning. Clearly, all this needs to be sorted out. Most people here do not clearly see what it is about.
[19:53] Rue Moonwall: Then animals would be as smart as us Jerone
[19:53] Lucien Velinov: ID has to assert that not only are the concepts better understood with the designer present, but that they CANNOT be understood without the designer present. ID can't do that.
[19:53] Miyam Letov: but YOU have the answer, Birric?
[19:53] Miyam Letov laughs
[19:53] Lucien Velinov: Then again, I'm just in this discussion for the hell of it, I know better lol
[19:53] Jerome Roddenham: I haven't heard one valid point toward ID this whole discussion
[19:53] Ceri Barrymore: Because people think and create and in their creating they cause others to think and develope and over time we cannot help but progress unless a natural disaster destroys intelligent life causing it to regress and begin again
[19:53] Jerome Roddenham: Only evolution bashing
[19:54] Maddie Margulis: actually I am god, and I did the designing. PROVE i'M NOT
[19:54] Blonde Starsmith: good point
[19:54] Xeno Octavia: yes Birr intellectual discussion always ongoing --tho get nowhere
[19:54] Elizabeth Spieler: technically animals see us as intelligent if our eyes are close together - a horse sees a species like us as a cat - eyes close - if the eyes are spread apart such as a goat and cow it's seen as friendly
[19:54] Elizabeth Spieler: we know very little about SIGHT
[19:54] Ceri Barrymore: and who's to say the diety referred to by some as God isn't a prior survivor of an evolutionary process
[19:54] Rue Moonwall: Jerone I Got a good Valid point for you towrds ID
[19:54] Jerome Roddenham: Do we elizabeth?
[19:54] Elizabeth Spieler: and the whole universe works on reflection which we dont' even have a beginning of understanding
[19:54] Birric Forcella: Well, Miyam, the avoidance of scent is a good example of design. It makes more sense to design the avoidance into us. How would it happen naturally? After all, the individuals who smell and would know die in short order. They can't pass on their knowledge.
[19:54] Jerome Roddenham: listens to Rue
[19:54] Xeno Octavia: liz how bout hammerhead shark
[19:55] Rue Moonwall: Jerone I have an exact mathimathical prove,
[19:55] Miyam Letov: we evelaute everything aroudn us based upon our own understanding...our own views...we presume to know animals
[19:55] Jerome Roddenham: i am listening Rue :)
[19:55] Elizabeth Spieler: xeon the ocean we know very little - I am a horse whisper not a whale watcher giggles
[19:55] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: *cough animals are stupid
[19:55] Elizabeth Spieler: animals have no past or future in the sense of time other than I AM HUNGRY let's eat
[19:55] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Thats a dumb comment
[19:55] Xeno Octavia: and i not a rare gas : )))
[19:55] Rue Moonwall: Jerome ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE
[19:56] Blonde Starsmith: We all may be just convenient avatars for a purpose and destiney we not of. Our soul ships sort of speak. It will progress to complete the soul mission.
[19:56] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: i dont see any animals here to defend themselves.. anybody else?
[19:56] Jerome Roddenham: Yes?
[19:56] Rue Moonwall: Mathematica prove that the creator does exits
[19:56] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: ahh lemme gues they dont need debate caus they got it all figured out
[19:56] Rue Moonwall: ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE
[19:56] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: offff coareeeeeee
[19:56] Elizabeth Spieler: I only have 15 minutes a day I can train something NEW to an animal
[19:56] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: ask the animals dummyz
[19:56] Elizabeth Spieler: the rest the animal can NOT learn
[19:56] Miyam Letov: we thought we knew about animals
[19:57] Miyam Letov: we said..humans are more intelligent becaus ewe use tools
[19:57] Birric Forcella: Well, Lucien, if you can't show how it all is possible WITHOUT a designer, then the designer hypothesis remains the only game. And so far I haven't seen anybody here make a good argument against the designer hypothesis. In fact, people have come up with many features and traits which seem to be perfect proof for design. How else could they have come about?
[19:57] Miyam Letov: then they observed animals using tools
[19:57] Miyam Letov: so we revised that theory
[19:57] Jerome Roddenham: ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE still doesn't prove ID
[19:57] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth righ the only animal that can learn is the animal that has our genetic code, only
[19:57] Miyam Letov: we've seen animals lie
[19:57] Elizabeth Spieler: we like the animals learn through repeating over and over and over it;'s why we stare alot at birth - our eyes are learning shapes to see as we are born blind
[19:57] Miyam Letov: animals give food for sex
[19:57] Elizabeth Spieler: animals don't lie ???
[19:57] Miyam Letov: so we really stumble when we try to define what makes us intelligent
[19:58] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth we can seed our genetic code in other planet and will get the same results
[19:58] Miyam Letov: they taught an ape sign language
[19:58] Myriam Brianna: I just gave an explanation how it would and could happen naturally. Those who didn't avoid these scents weren't able to reproduce, thus they are not present today. Why don't we avoid radiation and have a sense for it: Because our ancestors weren't exposed to it in lethal doses regularly enough and thus there was no selective pressure to develop a corresponding sense
[19:58] Miyam Letov: and she lied
[19:58] Miyam Letov: it's documented
[19:58] Elizabeth Spieler: animals run on instinct survival of the fittest and can be repeated and proven over and over
[19:58] Miyam Letov: in an old experiment
[19:58] Elizabeth Spieler: Miyam I see she was misunderstood
[19:58] Miyam Letov: so we keep revising the definition of inteligence
[19:58] Miyam Letov: such that it fits only humans
[19:58] Kollette Unplugged: then that Gorilla turned around and taught her daughter ASL
[19:58] Dyanna Saxmundham: well, this has been interesting, but as usual in discussions on this topic one side seems only interested in "converting" the other . . . time for bed :) night all :)
[19:58] Elizabeth Spieler: there is no way to know every experience in her memory to judge that
[19:58] Elizabeth Spieler: there is no evidence HOMEWORK for school kids WORDS
[19:58] Elizabeth Spieler: WORKS*
[19:59] Rue Moonwall: Human DNA can be seeded in other planets and you will get the same results,
[19:59] Elizabeth Spieler: yet we make them do it
[19:59] Elizabeth Spieler: because frankly were all stupid
[19:59] Elizabeth Spieler: just dumb ants thinking were making a big hill
[19:59] Elizabeth Spieler: zoom out
[19:59] Blonde Starsmith: I have to agree... as lively as this has been... I don't need to be convinced of anything atm
[19:59] Blonde Starsmith: great debate. hadn't been to one in years
[20:00] Rue Moonwall: cool
[20:00] Birric Forcella: It seems unlikely, Miriam, that our ancestors were exposed a lot to the scent of burning plastic, for instance.
[20:00] Ceri Barrymore: if anything else these discussions give us a chance to chuckle, think and gain a little intelligence to take with us into other discussions
[20:00] Blonde Starsmith: ty for letting me come
[20:00] Frederick Hansome: Seek the truth; run from one who claims to have found it!
[20:00] Elizabeth Spieler: Bravo Frederick
[20:00] Rue Moonwall: Cerri this is more then a little chuckle
[20:00] Birric Forcella: The who point is NOT to show that people are adapted - of course they are - but to show that the adaptation could NOT come from design but MUST have arisen randomly. Anybody want to meet that challenge?
[20:00] MargaretGrace Sapphire: That is the take home message Grederick for me
[20:00] Elizabeth Spieler: the one with no self esteem is the one I would listen to . . .giggles
[20:00] Freemason Magic: same thank you for this meeting
[20:01] Ceri Barrymore: if you sit and read what everyone is not hearing it's a chuckle
[20:01] Rue Moonwall: this is a blue print
[20:01] Rue Moonwall: this is how we find the compust
[20:01] Rue Moonwall: the direction
[20:01] BrainCrave OHare: it's an excellent question birric
[20:02] Rue Moonwall: Berric everything is random, like bingo
[20:02] Rue Moonwall: Everything is an odd game
[20:02] Elizabeth Spieler: Ceri some folks type 70 words per minute and some don't the art of a fast scrolling chat room conversation can take years to learn - and some things and comments are just ignored for having no value to respond to due to the short fast conversation - we see brain setting importance without choice
[20:02] Rue Moonwall: odds
[20:02] BrainCrave OHare: how do you prove randomness?
[20:02] Rue Moonwall: odd
[20:02] Rue Moonwall: odds
[20:03] Rue Moonwall: Nothing is 100%
[20:03] Birric Forcella: Rue, it's nice that you BELIEVE it - now it would be nicer if you had some arguments . . .
[20:03] Kollette Unplugged: Death, Birth
[20:03] Kollette Unplugged: Those are 100%
[20:03] Rue Moonwall: NOt death so much anymore
[20:03] Elizabeth Spieler: LIFE is also 100% true this moment in each avatar present
[20:03] Rue Moonwall: LIfe will be extended to 200, 300, ? years
[20:03] Birric Forcella: Well, I have no problem with randomness - the question is, WHAT are the mechanisms with which randomness turnes into structures - like hands and feet
[20:03] Rue Moonwall: Maybe indefinately
[20:03] Elizabeth Spieler: Life has no opposite
[20:04] Rue Moonwall: Also you may die at 12, or at 100
[20:04] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue I hope not
[20:04] Ceri Barrymore: i am bowing out of this discussion, have a lovely evening everyone, obviously I haven't evolved to the skills or intelligence level to contribute anything of import.
[20:04] BrainCrave OHare: it is difinitively impossible to prove randomness
[20:04] Kollette Unplugged: It's the Chaos Theory,
[20:04] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue wrinkles get pretty bad at 70 or 80 laughs
[20:04] Rue Moonwall: But the odds Staticis say 70 years old
[20:04] Myriam Brianna: it's a dumb question, because there's no need to show that adaptions 'must' have arisen randomly. It suffices that it is possible, and provides with a a-supernaturalistic explanation ... there's a reason the scientific community is in favour of the etsi deus non daretur, and this reason is that is has proven to be enormously helpful when we try to make predictions, and to describe the world as we percieve it
[20:05] Elizabeth Spieler: Ceri your intelligence didn't require proof - your mere presence proved your not dumb . . smiles
[20:05] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeht we are spending billions a year on product and operations and pills to keep us young
[20:05] Rue Moonwall: and science
[20:05] Birric Forcella: That is a complete non-sequitur, Miriam - I also don't understand the Latin
[20:05] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue some people are . . it's a big world out there
[20:06] Xeno Octavia: this'll most likely be a short centry --over bfore 2050!!
[20:06] Elizabeth Spieler: the oldest living people in the world I think are in Italy and they garden and work and live together cooking and such
[20:06] Rue Moonwall: We have already Double the average age from 35 to 70, and done this in the last 100 years only
[20:06] Birric Forcella: "And so god is not given"?
[20:06] Rue Moonwall: we will triple the average age in the next 35 years
[20:06] Elizabeth Spieler: yes Rue - Montana has plenty of land for the growth of population . . giggles
[20:06] Myriam Brianna: to incorporate something like a designer is, like Nietzsche would have said it, a "Faustgrobe Antwort", "An answer like a fist". It pretends to explain, but it is just another arbitrarily chosen end in the process of question and cognition
[20:06] Birric Forcella: How exactly do you make predictions then?
[20:06] Myriam Brianna: "As if God were not given"
[20:07] Elizabeth Spieler: God is a story someone taught you : /
[20:07] Rue Moonwall: Yes Elizabeth this will bring social conectations
[20:07] BrainCrave OHare: i'd like to refresh birric's question, as i think it's a good one: [08:03 PM] Birric Forcella: Well, I have no problem with randomness - the question is, WHAT are the mechanisms with which randomness turnes into structures - like hands and feet
[20:07] Maddie Margulis: thats it isn't it, get them young
[20:07] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth did we not double the avere age from 35 to 70 in the last 125 years?
[20:07] Elizabeth Spieler: Santa Clause did not show up again pfft
[20:07] Miyam Letov: interesting that the physicists seem to execpt the concept of God without question
[20:08] Birric Forcella: Myriam, that would only hold if you have prejudged that there cannot be a design. Looking at reality, I don't see how y ou can do that without good arguments. Just (mis)quoting Nietzsche isn't good enough.
[20:08] Miyam Letov: the more they learn, the more they believe
[20:08] Maddie Margulis: indoctrination
[20:08] Xeno Octavia: Brain and birric read Per Bak
[20:08] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue yes I believe we did double life expectancy
[20:08] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth answer the question I asked you!
[20:08] Rue Moonwall: Right
[20:08] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue you keep repeating am I misunderstanding?
[20:08] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: *throw a chill pill at rue
[20:08] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue I had agreed with you
[20:08] Rue Moonwall: And we did this with what we called by todays standard primative techiniques
[20:09] Frederick Hansome: Goodnight all. May 2010 find you usinge your intelligence more wisely and less argumentatively.
[20:09] Xeno Octavia: and Brain when's the art show
[20:09] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Myriam is correct that is all that sience can do describe the world as we see it based on probabilities. Since is based on establishing probabilities which has to do with the seeking of systematic patterns from random noise. I believe that this is how evolution works. Species evolve randomly. The ones that survive within a particular environmental circumstance as it evolves survive andthose that have the most adaptive traits have the greatest probability of surviving.
[20:09] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue we learned to not live with rats infesting our homes as they carry disease
[20:09] Susy Halcali: wouldn't be able to wear a shirt like BrainCraves if you throw the chill pill at him
[20:09] Rue Moonwall: Eliabeth science is exploting
[20:09] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue we still have invented NO NEW THING
[20:09] Myriam Brianna: I don't say that there can not be a design(er). I say that science can, for methodological reasons, not incorporate the notion of a designer without quitting to be science
[20:09] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue we have only used the materials already here already MADE
[20:10] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth, we invented machines that can do the work of 200 men
[20:10] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue still didn't change LIFE
[20:10] Rue Moonwall: We have invented social programs such as pre natel care
[20:10] Miyam Letov: and the ancient egyptians had batteries..i don't understand your point, rue
[20:10] Rue Moonwall: anti biotics
[20:10] Elizabeth Spieler: to say I am happier working a machine that standing at the foot of a great pyramid is not evolving to me
[20:11] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue ok but those are all stories
[20:11] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Night all facsinating discussion!!!
[20:11] Myriam Brianna: "The ones that survive within a particular environmental circumstance as it evolves survive andthose that have the most adaptive traits have the greatest probability of surviving." ... and there complex structures arise
[20:11] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue those in africa living without technology are equally happy
[20:11] Miyam Letov: once again..a presumption..we presume to be the most advanced of our species
[20:11] Myriam Brianna: gn8 Margaret
[20:11] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth the good old days where cruel, bruthish, and short
[20:11] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue there are no good ole days - there are only days with stories
[20:12] Birric Forcella: I wonder if anybody is awake to the fact that all you have displayed so far is (amialble) BELIEF in evolution and (nebulously) science. Just believing it isn't enough - that is what the religious crowd has done for millenia. Just believing that somehow something is "random" as Elizabeth so firmly believes isn't good enough, since it proves nothing. Randomness can just as well be used by a designer.
[20:12] Miyam Letov: how do you know that?
[20:12] Miyam Letov: explain how egyptians had batteries...how we have just now caught up to the mayan's knowlegde of mathematics
[20:12] Elizabeth Spieler: Birric even science questions itself in the age of water being 13,000-14,000 years old
[20:12] Elizabeth Spieler: no thing living lived or can live without water
[20:10] Miyam Letov: and the ancient egyptians had batteries..i don't understand your point, rue
[20:10] Rue Moonwall: anti biotics
[20:10] Elizabeth Spieler: to say I am happier working a machine that standing at the foot of a great pyramid is not evolving to me
[20:11] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue ok but those are all stories
[20:11] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Night all facsinating discussion!!!
[20:11] Myriam Brianna: "The ones that survive within a particular environmental circumstance as it evolves survive andthose that have the most adaptive traits have the greatest probability of surviving." ... and there complex structures arise
[20:11] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue those in africa living without technology are equally happy
[20:11] Miyam Letov: once again..a presumption..we presume to be the most advanced of our species
[20:11] Myriam Brianna: gn8 Margaret
[20:11] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth the good old days where cruel, bruthish, and short
[20:11] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue there are no good ole days - there are only days with stories
[20:12] Birric Forcella: I wonder if anybody is awake to the fact that all you have displayed so far is (amialble) BELIEF in evolution and (nebulously) science. Just believing it isn't enough - that is what the religious crowd has done for millenia. Just believing that somehow something is "random" as Elizabeth so firmly believes isn't good enough, since it proves nothing. Randomness can just as well be used by a designer.
[20:12] Miyam Letov: how do you know that?
[20:12] Miyam Letov: explain how egyptians had batteries...how we have just now caught up to the mayan's knowlegde of mathematics
[20:12] Elizabeth Spieler: Birric even science questions itself in the age of water being 13,000-14,000 years old
[20:12] Elizabeth Spieler: no thing living lived or can live without water
[20:13] Birric Forcella: Believing in things and quoting Nietzsche just isn't good enough. Really, are you willing to build your worldview on so little? Don't you at least want some clear hard proof?
[20:13] Elizabeth Spieler: science has a twister on that topic
[20:13] Elizabeth Spieler: there is no difference between me and the woman that lived 5000 years ago
[20:13] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: so.. how bout flat earth?? any takerz
[20:13] Rue Moonwall: Eliabeth water 13,000-14000? ha try 4 billion years old
[20:13] Elizabeth Spieler: both equally able to love live have kids and be happy or sad what ever
[20:13] BrainCrave OHare: but disproving evolution doesn't necessarily mean that there was a designer - could be little green men
[20:14] Elizabeth Spieler: sorry Rue google that
[20:14] Birric Forcella: The Egyptians did NOT have batteries. The Mayan math knowledge was unspeakably primitive to European math of the year 1000. Come on. Miriam, you are now just showing New Age superstition and credulity.
[20:14] Miyam Letov: flat earth as in we once KNEW the earth was flat..just as they KNEW we were heading into a period of global warming, rob?
[20:14] Elizabeth Spieler: ok but evolution is not machinery
[20:14] Miyam Letov: The did have batteries birric
[20:14] Elizabeth Spieler: that is a story appearing in the mind told by humans
[20:14] Miyam Letov: read much, hon?
[20:14] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: oh we are all doomed to global warming for sureeeee
[20:14] Miyam Letov: hahaha
[20:15] Myriam Brianna sighs and copies the "4 challenges" into a notecard, since she has to go to bed sometime soon, at 5 am. And btw, it is MyRiam and Miyam. Two different people, srsly
[20:15] Birric Forcella: What is this about the age of water? Water is a compaound and once compounded - it remains until - well - destroyed.
[20:15] Miyam Letov: gobal warming is a myth
[20:15] Elizabeth Spieler: the myans understood the law of reflection as seen in their ampitheatre which is also in my model in Oz
[20:15] Xeno Octavia: an i thought it made intells hot
[20:15] Elizabeth Spieler: a sound studio understands the law of reflection very well
[20:16] Elizabeth Spieler: bounce
[20:16] Elizabeth Spieler: can't see it but it's there
[20:16] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: well global warming is true.. it defaintly gets hot n cold.. but humans dooming mankind at an alarming rate.. nahh
[20:16] Birric Forcella: No, the Mayans did not understand that. They just observed how certain things sound. There is a huge difference. This is New Age credulity - the exact opposite of an understanding of evolution
[20:16] Miyam Letov: thanks miryam for saying that
[20:16] Miyam Letov: and yes, we're not the same person
[20:16] Xeno Octavia: noit destroyed just bak ta hydro and oxy
[20:16] Elizabeth Spieler: Birric recently that was reported on the history channel what I just said : /
[20:16] Rue Moonwall: Rob theres been alredy more species extint, then there is alive today
[20:17] Miyam Letov: mathematically the mayans were very advanced
[20:17] Elizabeth Spieler: acoustics = Law of reflection = ld style quantum mechinics - Einstein OLD information we learn in 2nd grade
[20:17] Birric Forcella: ???
[20:17] Rue Moonwall: 4.3 billion years will extint lot of creature, and besides the planet did bounce back
[20:17] Myriam Brianna: Oo
[20:17] Rue Moonwall: lol
[20:17] Elizabeth Spieler: wireless technology is using what ?
[20:17] Elizabeth Spieler: air?
[20:17] Myriam Brianna: "old style quantum mechanics" = "law of reflection" = "Acoustics" ... what?!
[20:18] Elizabeth Spieler: Myrian it's on wikipedia quantum mechanics if you care to take a peek
[20:18] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth La smog is compiting with the generation of oxygen!
[20:18] Rue Moonwall: La
[20:18] Birric Forcella: Well, if you believe in the Old Egyptions and the Mayans, I really don't understand why you wouldn't believe in a Designer . . .
[20:18] Miyam Letov: i DO believe in God
[20:18] Myriam Brianna: I'm questioning the equal-sign ...
[20:18] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue due to the universe as a whole being alive I don't ever see LIFE ceasing - eternal birth and death is all we can prove at this time
[20:18] Miyam Letov: lol
[20:19] Miyam Letov: God and science are NOT mutually exclusive
[20:19] Rue Moonwall: LA, what 60 oxygen, 40 smog?
[20:19] Desire Guru: when the sun becomes a red dwarf, the earth's orbit (and that of Gor) will be inside the dwarf
[20:19] Elizabeth Spieler: God is a term man uses to figure out science - all invented labels and stories trying to understand the NOW
[20:19] Rue Moonwall: Running out of oxygen in LA
[20:19] Birric Forcella: ID and Evolution ARE mutually exclusive - How do you decide which is right.
[20:19] Miyam Letov: that is an opinion, elizabeth
[20:20] Elizabeth Spieler: Miyam let's test it - DO NOT think of a pink elephant
[20:20] Miyam Letov: wait
[20:20] Miyam Letov: what are we testing?
[20:20] Miyam Letov: lol
[20:20] Elizabeth Spieler: giggles you saw one didn't you
[20:20] Miyam Letov: and birric, they are not mutually exclusive
[20:20] Nathalia Schmooz: through scientific testing and observation Birric
[20:20] Birric Forcella wonders if anybody understands WHY ID and Evolution are mutually exclusive . . .
[20:20] Miyam Letov: no, i was trying to decipher what yo umeant
[20:21] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: i think we all have subconcious knowlege of right and wrong regarldes of indoctrines, not throwing a blow for ID but it does question my mind
[20:21] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth, I was walking in NYC side walk the other day, and through the little cracks of the concrete a little blade of grass was sticking out, growing, LIFE IS RELANTLES!
[20:21] Xeno Octavia: well folkes it been fun but gotta get home!!
[20:21] Elizabeth Spieler: I can point at a tree and say that is a tree but I know nothing about the tree
[20:21] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue yes I tried to kill grass once, the grass won
[20:21] Rue Moonwall: Life is RElentless
[20:21] Miyam Letov: the're only mutually exclusive in your mind, birric
[20:22] Birric Forcella: Is life RELENTLESS by design or by chance?
[20:22] Elizabeth Spieler: LIFE is all powerful YES and without beginning and end when the seed of it is studied under a micrscope
[20:22] Elizabeth Spieler: ALL seeing to
[20:22] BrainCrave OHare: (raises his hand) - i don't understand why evolution and ID are mutually exclusive; theoretically, you could have a designer who designs in randomness
[20:22] Elizabeth Spieler: if it were not all seeing I would fall through my chair
[20:22] Rue Moonwall: I believe by desing
[20:23] Rue Moonwall: Some one, some creator, some alien life, planted the seeds of life on earth,
[20:23] Elizabeth Spieler: Brain Jesus made aged wine out of old water : //
[20:23] Miyam Letov: this is what drives me crazy abotu creationsism
[20:23] Elizabeth Spieler: lots of fake atiques out there giggles
[20:23] Miyam Letov: everyone thinks they KNOW God
[20:23] Myriam Brianna: and where did this some-one come from? It formed in a blast of light and laughter?
[20:24] Elizabeth Spieler: Miyam that is due to the instinct
[20:24] Elizabeth Spieler: the will to live
[20:24] Elizabeth Spieler: survival of the fittest
[20:24] Elizabeth Spieler: the food chain
[20:25] Rue Moonwall: Myrian we are putting all our best minds, and speding billions of dollars to reach the heavens, WE ARE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHERE WE CAME FROM, The ultimate philisophycal question
[20:25] Miyam Letov: so you think ..you're smarter because you are sure that there is no God, elizabeth?
[20:25] Elizabeth Spieler: Miyam when did I say there is no God?
[20:26] Nathalia Schmooz: I would love to think out creator is an alien
[20:26] Rue Moonwall: The question that has been ask for millions of years by our species, where di we come from, the stars?
[20:26] Elizabeth Spieler: God = 10,000 definitions - I got one like everyone else
[20:26] Miyam Letov: then i misread what you typed.
[20:26] Nathalia Schmooz: and our solar system is a big greenhouse
[20:26] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue it's the instincts attempt to change the now
[20:26] Elizabeth Spieler: even if we knew that answer then what?
[20:27] Elizabeth Spieler: no difference atomic structure stays the same
[20:27] Elizabeth Spieler: birth and death eternall occuring on a rock floating in space
[20:27] Birric Forcella: Evolution and design are exclusive because - simply - if they weren't, as Brain just stated - it would all be design - even if the designer worked in randomness. The question is: Does the randomness work by "itself" as it were - or is a designer NEEDED? If any designer is NEEDED, then evolution is FALSIFIED, as I tried to show - if NO designer is needed, then, by definition DESIGN IS FALSIFIED. So the existence of the one necessarily FALSIFIES the other. Please ask more questions if you don't undertand this point, since it is the central crucial point. I thought educated, philosophy-minded people knew this . . .
[20:27] BrainCrave OHare: but why does not being able to prove the facts supporting evolution (i know there are disagreements here) mean that there was a designer?
[20:27] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth we don't live in the now, even what i'm going to type in a few seconds, is the future
[20:28] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: unlesss we got time fucked up
[20:28] Rue Moonwall: I live projecting into the future even if is a few seconds
[20:28] Elizabeth Spieler: sorry to hear that Rue because now is all thre is . . . it's self evident were the end result right Now
[20:28] Birric Forcella: BTW., what I just said is also the reason why Evolution, by nature, demands atheism
[20:28] Elizabeth Spieler: if you are in the future or the past your missing the gift of right now
[20:29] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: mmm if theres nothing after life is it like having hot sex and not remembering it?
[20:29] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth your always acting on what you hope to be in the future
[20:29] Birric Forcella: Well, Brain, that question will have to wait to the part where we PROVE Evolution to be true . . .
[20:29] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: makes it not worth living
[20:29] BrainCrave OHare: ok, that makes sense birric
[20:29] RobsterRawb Jaxxon: *shoots myself
[20:29] Rue Moonwall: YOur acting now for the future
[20:29] Elizabeth Spieler: Brain a male and female entity we call God collided and became what we find to be the ATOM and it multiplied to what it is now - simplest way to say it in a language most understand
[20:29] Myriam Brianna: no, it does not. Evolution is not concerned with biogenesis. Though of course a god compatible with evolution would not be the babylonian despot described by Genesis etc
[20:30] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue whatever I focus on does effect my future yes but the future is never happening now
[20:30] Elizabeth Spieler: you can't be in the future and now at the same moment - mentally
[20:30] Elizabeth Spieler: you can not speak and read at the same time
[20:30] Elizabeth Spieler: you can't tell me what you will be thinking in an hour
[20:31] Elizabeth Spieler: anything is possible
[20:31] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth you focuse on the future plan, and you work toward does goal you have in mind of the furture, be it, sec hours, tomorrow, next year
[20:31] BrainCrave OHare: but birric, you can never prove definitive randomness
[20:31] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue when you die where is the future for you ?
[20:32] Rue Moonwall: Depends on your religion
[20:32] Rue Moonwall: On your believes
[20:32] Elizabeth Spieler: what happens to all the plans ? goals ? the stories here ?
[20:32] Elizabeth Spieler: is there a uhaul behind the hurst?
[20:32] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth, everything in this planet also dies with you,
[20:32] Elizabeth Spieler: were born with no thing we die with no thing - there is nothing to get
[20:33] BrainCrave OHare: if you can never prove randomness (at least definitively), the best thing you can do is run more tests until your confidence levels go up - that's basic statistics
[20:33] Rue Moonwall: some people think their going to go to heaven
[20:33] Birric Forcella: Definite randomness is not needed - since the mechanisms claimed for Evolution really don't depend on absolute randomness - actually the technical term is "natural variation" - you really only need a wide variation, as surmised by Darwin. Since today we know that the driving force actually is radiation (even from outer space) which creates the mutations, it is generally called randomness because it is really very close to random - if not perfectly random
[20:33] Myriam Brianna: yes, exactly BrainCrave. Pure randomness is never provable, which perhaps is the reason for our human love towards the Bell Curve etc
[20:33] Rue Moonwall: or hell,
[20:33] Rue Moonwall: Or on pregotory
[20:33] Elizabeth Spieler: rue without a brain what will or could they know ? there would be no knowledge or reason or thinking or attachment
[20:33] Rue Moonwall: some thingk their going to be reincarnated
[20:33] Elizabeth Spieler: no passion no desire
[20:33] Rue Moonwall: Some think their are going to be worm food
[20:34] Elizabeth Spieler: yes many thinks here about then - the future they can't prove
[20:34] Elizabeth Spieler: they miss the point of NOW then don't they
[20:34] Elizabeth Spieler: it's like ignoring the flowers when they bloom
[20:34] Birric Forcella: Darwin himself had no idea what was at the base of variation. All he asserted was what he saw - the appearance of variation.
[20:34] Rue Moonwall: So some do worry about even that future event, Some are speding billions off dollars to prevent deaf
[20:34] Miyam Letov: night everyone. thank you for the very interesting discussion
[20:34] Rue Moonwall: Men will not rest until he conquers death!
[20:34] Elizabeth Spieler: Night Miyam
[20:35] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue and that is just a thought
[20:35] Elizabeth Spieler: LIFE has never ended for anyone
[20:35] Rue Moonwall: no,
[20:35] Elizabeth Spieler: as no one is in sole possession of it
[20:35] Rue Moonwall: We spend trillions on trying to ward off death
[20:35] Elizabeth Spieler: thought tries to live forever
[20:35] BrainCrave OHare: so, though we can't explain "natural variation", it could be based on a designer
[20:35] Elizabeth Spieler: it will lose
[20:35] Rue Moonwall: Cell do regenerate,
[20:35] Rue Moonwall: is a fact
[20:36] Birric Forcella: Maybe one should first get the misconceptions about Evolution and ID out of the way.
[20:36] Elizabeth Spieler: will to live
[20:36] Rue Moonwall: they can be reginerating indefenetly
[20:36] Elizabeth Spieler: it's a fact every human ever born will die - but the life was neither born or died
[20:36] Elizabeth Spieler: the life was never touched for even a second
[20:37] Rue Moonwall: Elizabeth, we have double the ages, and we will tripple, quadruble, and indefinetly, Walt dissney had his body frozen for that reason
[20:37] Elizabeth Spieler: oh dear Rue
[20:37] Birric Forcella: Well, Brain, again, there is a conceptual problem. Either variation works autonomously or not. In a way, you could say that it makes not much difference if the variation is produced by a creator - since what makes the difference (as should actually be reserved for another time) is made by the "selection" not the variation.
[20:37] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue is your flesh body really what you are ?
[20:38] Rue Moonwall: Even the farels momified then self, for that reason
[20:38] Elizabeth Spieler: good point Birric
[20:38] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue but Life hasn't ended
[20:38] Elizabeth Spieler: Rue you can't say life ended at any time
[20:38] BrainCrave OHare: ok, that makes sense birric
[20:38] Rue Moonwall: Inmortality, has been humanitis bigges dream
[20:38] Elizabeth Spieler: the flesh ended
[20:38] Elizabeth Spieler: the flower fades
[20:39] Elizabeth Spieler: but life still goes on strong as ever
[20:39] Rue Moonwall: The dimin of the ligh
[20:39] Rue Moonwall: light
[20:39] Elizabeth Spieler: no one has a different life force
[20:39] Elizabeth Spieler: there is only one
[20:39] Elizabeth Spieler: shared by it all
[20:40] Rue Moonwall: okay Eliabeth, beautifull conversation with you, night, and Merry Christmas
[20:40] Elizabeth Spieler: my puppy is hungry I need to go now
[20:40] Elizabeth Spieler: you also Rue thank you
[20:40] BrainCrave OHare: but, with randomness/variation, you're always going to see things outside the bell (i.e., at the extremes); so, from a statistical perspective, humanity meets the definition of randomness
[20:40] Elizabeth Spieler: Happy sweet day or night to you all
[20:41] Birric Forcella: Yes, Brain, those are TWO strikes against ID
[20:42] Birric Forcella: But I am getting ahead of myself
[20:43] Susy Halcali: good night all
[20:45] BrainCrave OHare: so here's what i'm going to suggest - this has been a great discussion, but it seems like there is a lot of reading that we should do (i.e., going back over the chat log and thinking about what was said)- maybe we should get together again in a few days to continue the conversation
[20:45] BrainCrave OHare: after we've had a chance to review the logs - what do you think birric?
[20:46] BrainCrave OHare: that will give us a chance to re-organize our thoughts and maybe strengthen arguments
[20:46] Birric Forcella: It was a bit all over the place. Maybe we could concentrate on one or a few points.
[20:47] BrainCrave OHare: that's a great idea - let's you and i discuss privately what should be the 1 or 2 points you think best to focus on in the follow-up conversation
[20:47] BrainCrave OHare: i'd like to thank birric so very much for contributing this - this was a VERY difficult conversation to keep straight, and there are clearly a lot of passions there
[20:48] BrainCrave OHare: i hope you will all do the same
[20:48] Birric Forcella: I want to thank all of you. It was very enjoyable
[20:48] Nathalia Schmooz: thanks - fascinating discussion ;-)))
[20:50] Myriam Brianna shrugs - I would suggest a moderated discussion next time around. This was in parts just chaos. Not of the good kind.
[20:51] BrainCrave OHare: thanx myriam for the suggestion - it's a good one
[20:51] Birric Forcella: Whatever you like
[20:52] Myriam Brianna: and yeah, thank you. For good or bad it gave me a new incentive to translate a number of texts I wanted to translate anyway at some point
[20:53] BrainCrave OHare: :)
-
braincrave permalink
The following discussion occurred on Monday, November 30, 2009 at 6:30 PM/18:30 SLT (PST) in Second Life at Within Ten Years (http://slurl.com/secondlife/Within%20Ten%20Years/69/198/24). It is based on the article titled (Demagoguery). The BrainCrave.com group on Second Life is free to join. Please excuse the typos - it's a very common occurrence in Second Life.
[18:36] BrainCrave OHare: Alright, let's begin...hi ocad
[18:36] Shwa Quijote: isn't "designed anarchy" kind of an oxymoron?
[18:36] AnaVictoria Morales: Well-designed anarchy... interesting
[18:37] BrainCrave OHare: everyone ready?
[18:37] OCADland Minotaur: Good evening
[18:37] >>> OCADland: Guten Abend
[18:37] phillip1882 Arabello: sorry we ckinda already started
[18:37] AnaVictoria Morales: Ready here : ).. Goodevening, OCAD
[18:37] BrainCrave OHare: lol phil - irst, a special thank you to Half Short for allow us to use this beautiful SIM that she designed
[18:37] AnaVictoria Morales: Yeah we jumped the gun?
[18:38] BrainCrave OHare: The Greek philosopher Epictetus believed that only the educated are free.
[18:38] Xeno Octavia: yay --half short
[18:38] BrainCrave OHare: With that in mind, BrainCrave.com is more than just bringing people together for dating - it's about helping each other grow our minds...
[18:38] BrainCrave OHare: it's about discussing our deep thoughts on topics that matter to our members.
[18:38] Xeno Octavia: nah brain --they are enslaved to thinking they kno
[18:39] phillip1882 Arabello: to a degre thats the case but you can make slaves of smart people too
[18:39] BrainCrave OHare: Though many of us would rather have a tooth pulled without novacaine, there's no getting away from a topic for which we are all profoundly impacted on a daily basis - politics.
[18:39] BrainCrave OHare: Ergo, being educated in political thought, even with thoughts with which we don't agree, matters.
[18:40] BrainCrave OHare: George Orwell once said that "to see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle."
[18:40] BrainCrave OHare: There's also an adage: lies need the support of government, truth can stand on its own.
[18:40] BrainCrave OHare: We needn't look any further on the veracity of these statements than the recent breaking news about the global warming conspiracy to commit fraud that even the mainstream media is now acknowledging (e.g., http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/24/taking_liberties/entry5761180.shtml, http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704779704574552533758682774.html).
[18:41] BrainCrave OHare: What now appears to be clearly falsified data and conclusions, many of us once took as the gospel truth from our so-called "leaders."
[18:41] BrainCrave OHare: We gave the political class power through our support and sanction based on what they told us.
[18:41] BrainCrave OHare: Now we know their ideas and promises were based on fraud. Yet they still retain the power we gave them.
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: Will we ever be able to take back that power once we give it away?
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: A demagogue is defined as "a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power."
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: AnaVictoria Morales (http://braincrave.com/showprofile.php?id=162) has a passion for this topic.
[18:42] BrainCrave OHare: She lives in a country that is ruled by dictator Hugo Chávez, a demagogue if there ever was one.
[18:43] AnaVictoria Morales: Indeed
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: In so many ways, his policies and ideology have destroyed Venezuela, a country currently rationing water and electricity as just a few examples.
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: Why do individuals allow this to happen? Why do individuals allow Hitler to do what he did?
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
[18:43] BrainCrave OHare: Well, AnaVictoria is doing something about it by engaging us with her own thoughts.
[18:44] BrainCrave OHare: So let's start with this question: what did you think of her thoughts on the notecard (which are also posted at http://www.braincrave.com/viewblog.php?id=17)?[18:44]
[18:44] BrainCrave OHare: phil - you seemed to have ome thoughts before
[18:45] phillip1882 Arabello: aright once agian i am sking would you view someone like ron paul to be a demaguge
[18:45] phillip1882 Arabello: he is appealing to poluar opinion
[18:45] Xeno Octavia: why??
[18:46] phillip1882 Arabello: the idea of limited gevernment, and libery is something many people value
[18:46] AnaVictoria Morales: But limiting government could lead to abuse by the priviledged.
[18:47] phillip1882 Arabello: i dont really see how
[18:47] Arainel Klossovsky: so the premise is no government not just limited government
[18:47] AnaVictoria Morales: Then you have oligarchy, wich leads to demagoguery sooner or later.
[18:47] Xeno Octavia: ron is not a demigog because he cant win --like most libbytears
[18:47] BrainCrave OHare: does ron paul make false claims?
[18:47] BrainCrave OHare: (part of the definition)
[18:48] phillip1882 Arabello: well, none from his perspective
[18:48] AnaVictoria Morales: It seems political history is a shift between extremes, never finding any kind of balance.
[18:48] Xeno Octavia: all cliams are false
[18:48] Arainel Klossovsky: perspective is quite broad
[18:48] BrainCrave OHare: why is that xeno?
[18:48] OCADland Minotaur: A major issue in all the senerios is the treatment of corporations as individuals ubstead of as creations of the government
[18:48] AnaVictoria Morales: True, OCAD
[18:48] Xeno Octavia: because truth depends on where u sit!!
[18:49] OCADland Minotaur: We should not confuse human and citizen rights and corporate rights
[18:49] AnaVictoria Morales: Instead of the individuals that make up a corporation being liable.
[18:49] phillip1882 Arabello: for example our government has adopted kanzenian ecomic priciples
[18:49] phillip1882 Arabello: they would call most of ron pluls ideas false
[18:49] Arainel Klossovsky: what is truth?
[18:50] Xeno Octavia: corps weould be better if could give to tru longrange [timewise] AI computers
[18:50] BrainCrave OHare: a good question arainel
[18:50] phillip1882 Arabello: fairly off topic though
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: why
[18:50] Shwa Quijote: truth is absolute
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: if you speak of what is false
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: then how can you find false
[18:50] Arainel Klossovsky: with no truth
[18:50] Shwa Quijote: opinions and value judgements depend on where you sit
[18:50] Xeno Octavia: i ususally would say "truth is the next lie i tell u"
[18:50] AnaVictoria Morales: Well, I don't think there could be a consensus on political truths, if such a notion exists but I wonder...
[18:51] Priya Dollinger: truth or the absense of it is very much on topic
[18:51] Shwa Quijote: lol yeah
[18:51] OCADland Minotaur: "We hold these truths to be self evident..."
[18:51] AnaVictoria Morales: It's a politician's job to produce half-baked truths, it would seem
[18:51] Shwa Quijote: politics is full of all the faulty, misleading stuff in the notecard
[18:51] Arainel Klossovsky: we need a tooth pick test like betty crocker :D
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: I'd rather think of the highest amount of social well-being, as a forefather of my country put it.
[18:52] Shwa Quijote: imo you can't get elected without a heavy dose of that stuff
[18:52] Xeno Octavia: the prob is when humans finish baking th ehalf baked
[18:52] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Politians get stuck between idealism and what happens
[18:52] Priya Dollinger: A politician's job is to secure his own position
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: Indeed.
[18:52] BrainCrave OHare: alright, so maybe the question is why do politicians lie, which ultimately leads people to believe them and fosters demagoguery?
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: Why, thugh?
[18:52] AnaVictoria Morales: *though
[18:52] Arainel Klossovsky: sadly there are no public servants
[18:53] Shwa Quijote: people don't want to hear the truth
[18:53] Xeno Octavia: or tell it
[18:53] Arainel Klossovsky: i disagree shwa
[18:53] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Hope is why we believe
[18:53] Arainel Klossovsky: we are people
[18:53] MargaretGrace Sapphire: I think we all seek truth
[18:53] AnaVictoria Morales: people want things fed to them in black and white, I believe... no shades of gray.
[18:53] OCADland Minotaur: There are many public servants who die everyday for their people
[18:53] MargaretGrace Sapphire: that is true
[18:53] Shwa Quijote: well... the electorate doesn't want to hear it anyway
[18:53] Xeno Octavia: ive allways made up truth as i go along
[18:54] Shwa Quijote: as evidenced by the results -.-
[18:54] BrainCrave OHare: why do people, especially those who have common sense, believe/follow demagoguery?
[18:55] MargaretGrace Sapphire: I think they follow out of the need to dream
[18:55] AnaVictoria Morales: We want to be pandered to... we are obviously lacking leadership and depending on the most infuential electoral group, we elect someone who will spoon feed us.
[18:55] Xeno Octavia: interessii n assumpt Brain
[18:55] Arainel Klossovsky: we wish to be enslaved
[18:55] Shwa Quijote: if you can control a person's information input, you can get them to do anything
[18:55] AnaVictoria Morales: Napoleon himslef seized absolute power when anarchy set in
[18:56] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Scary truthe
[18:56] Keela Latte: I believe it's because of a fundamental human weakness, and a desire to believe the best.
[18:56] Xeno Octavia: wasnt real anarchy Ana
[18:56] BrainCrave OHare: is it week to believe the best keela?
[18:56] BrainCrave OHare: weak
[18:56] AnaVictoria Morales: Would you all agree that education is the beest tool to prevent the rise of demagogues?
[18:56] Keela Latte: It's not weak to believe the best, but it is lazy to think nothing will go wrong.
[18:57] AnaVictoria Morales: *best
[18:57] BrainCrave OHare: i would ana
[18:57] phillip1882 Arabello: yes but you have to be careful what you teach
[18:57] Shwa Quijote: ana yes... education like "how to think/analyze" though
[18:57] AnaVictoria Morales: But education can be perverted or manipulated to suit a demagogue's interests.
[18:57] Xeno Octavia: no Ana educaqtun is a major source of demigogs
[18:58] BrainCrave OHare: ho so xeno?
[18:58] AnaVictoria Morales: I am witnessing it in my country. Hitler and the communists, even in cuba "indoctrinate" the young.
[18:58] Priya Dollinger: Textbooks can be written to a certain point of view
[18:58] Keela Latte: People also don't trust their own internal compass enough, they will believe what someone else tells them, there are not enough who think strongly who believe in themselves, who trust themselves.
[18:58] Xeno Octavia: thewy are idiots feeding other idiots ansddd education is the food Brain
[18:58] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Education may be saved by the arguments between the demagogues
[18:58] AnaVictoria Morales: How do we guarantee the purity of education such that no political ideology, except maybe the declaration of human rights, affects it?
[18:59] phillip1882 Arabello: for example everyone lovesabe licoln cause he freed the salves, but hte truth is he only added that to the third year into the war and only becasue support for the war wa dieing out
[18:59] BrainCrave OHare: my opinion to your question ana is that we leave it to parents to be responsible for thir children's ducation - not the state
[19:00] Shwa Quijote: local control of school districts, imo... federal control means politicians control the curriculum, local control means teachers are more likely to control it
[19:00] Xeno Octavia: ond only freed them in the places had no power over
[19:00] MargaretGrace Sapphire: AnaVictoria's question is fundamental. If that can be answered we will be safe
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: agree shwa
[19:00] phillip1882 Arabello: very much so, agree shwa
[19:00] Arainel Klossovsky: the war was not about slavery it was about states rights which helps to limit demagagury
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: well, i'm not sure we'd be safe margaret, but we'd be stronger
[19:00] AnaVictoria Morales: Maybe technical prfficiency could guarantee it. An education well-founded in science is an education well-founded in logic and self-evident truths, someone once told me.
[19:00] MargaretGrace Sapphire: True Brain
[19:00] BrainCrave OHare: exactly arainel
[19:00] Keela Latte: No, one will make a diference unless each person believes they can.
[19:01] Keela Latte: I mean, no one
[19:01] Priya Dollinger: But you have to be brave to stand up for your rights
[19:01] BrainCrave OHare: so keela, does that mean that low self-esteem is causing us to believe what politicians say?
[19:01] Xeno Octavia: beliefe tho is not same as knowing
[19:01] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Does that define the leader Keela
[19:02] Keela Latte: I think that is a big part of leading the masses, who can be in control and who is follows.
[19:02] AnaVictoria Morales: hmm
[19:02] phillip1882 Arabello: i think to some degree we enjoy someone else making our decisions for us
[19:02] Keela Latte: A lot of people do.
[19:02] Shwa Quijote: lol yeah
[19:02] BrainCrave OHare: i don't phil
[19:02] Xeno Octavia: anarchists dont
[19:02] AnaVictoria Morales: It's the idea behind electing officials
[19:02] Arainel Klossovsky: having knowledge , education, confidence instills a power to care for yourself and not rely on a thing or person or government to do that
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: <- anarchist
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: agree with arainel
[19:03] AnaVictoria Morales: Who was it that once said "No one who wants to hold public office should ever be allowed"?
[19:03] Shwa Quijote: amen
[19:03] MargaretGrace Sapphire: But anarchy cannot protect a nation from war since unfortunately that requires an organized response
[19:03] phillip1882 Arabello: truman i belive
[19:03] BrainCrave OHare: but getting back to self-esteem, i wonder if that's why there's limited interest in caring for yourself
[19:03] Xeno Octavia: as long as we think we need govornment then we will be governed
[19:04] Xeno Octavia: if we had loverments instead we would be real
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: agree with xeno
[19:04] AnaVictoria Morales: I'd extend that...
[19:04] Arainel Klossovsky: if you have fear you will want something else to be responsible
[19:04] BrainCrave OHare: lol - interesting term xeno
[19:04] Arainel Klossovsky: ie lack of confidence
[19:04] AnaVictoria Morales: As long as we don't learn to live by the golden rule, we need governments.
[19:05] Shwa Quijote: history says that people don't all choose to live that way :(
[19:05] MargaretGrace Sapphire: What tarnishes the golden rule
[19:05] Xeno Octavia: govts based in alienation but loverments in intimacy
[19:05] BrainCrave OHare: not being taught it and not seeing examples margaret
[19:05] MargaretGrace Sapphire: When to loverments become arguments
[19:06] Xeno Octavia: marge when lovers in alienated culture yes
[19:06] BrainCrave OHare: so, to the point of the golden rule, what moral obligation do we have when we see demagoguery?
[19:06] MargaretGrace Sapphire: What is the route cause of the transition
[19:06] AnaVictoria Morales: corruption, I think
[19:06] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Gentle counter point?
[19:06] Keela Latte: When a person believes in themself they can make a difference even if it's for evil, so, if it's for good, we have ssen that too.
[19:07] Xeno Octavia: do onto others as they do onto u --obverse
[19:07] Arainel Klossovsky: i think the golden rule is to do unto others as you would want them to do to you yes?
[19:07] AnaVictoria Morales: In spanish we phrase it "Don't do to others what you wouldnn't like done to yoursef"
[19:07] AnaVictoria Morales: sorry about the typos
[19:07] Arainel Klossovsky: well said ana
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: old keyboard : (
[19:08] Xeno Octavia: yes but the one i just sed is for enforcement
[19:08] Shwa Quijote: imo you're not morally obliged to go out of your way to right a wrong... it's certainly commendable, and i think you have a moral obligation to not make the world a bad place, but you need to pick your battles, and different people will pick different battles.
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: It is an important decision...
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: Do unto others kinda leads to an expectation that you'll have done back to you...
[19:08] Shwa Quijote: a doctor might choose not to fight an evil dictator so he can practice medicine unmolested, for example
[19:08] AnaVictoria Morales: Whereas "Don't do"...
[19:09] Xeno Octavia: expectation like that is poisonous
[19:09] AnaVictoria Morales: Indeed
[19:09] AnaVictoria Morales: Can't agree more
[19:09] BrainCrave OHare: is demagoguery always bad - are there ever cases where it can be good?
[19:10] Priya Dollinger: no
[19:10] Arainel Klossovsky: maybe temporarily but won't last
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: It's a tool. Used irresponsibly it can lead to disaster, I suppose.
[19:10] Xeno Octavia: ah bad vs good de3migogs
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: A very Machiavelian tool.
[19:10] Randi Grigorovich: hi all:)
[19:10] Shwa Quijote: the word is used in a negative context... therefore by definition it is unsavory
[19:10] BrainCrave OHare: hi randi
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: It is a loade d term too
[19:10] Randi Grigorovich: sorry i am late i was working:)
[19:10] BrainCrave OHare: no worries
[19:10] AnaVictoria Morales: Welcome, Randi : )
[19:11] Xeno Octavia: so we may need invent a good demigog : ))
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: thank you:)
[19:11] Shwa Quijote: if he's good people will call him a populist hero
[19:11] Randi Grigorovich: am i dressed ok?
[19:12] BrainCrave OHare: so, getting back to self-esteem, if that's one of the causes to make us believe lies (i.e., people of common sense), how do we elevate the self-esteem of a world?
[19:12] Keela Latte: Evaluating that is harder on a global basis.
[19:13] Xeno Octavia: Dalai Lama laughs at western concept of self estteem
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: alright, then how do you do it on a local basis?
[19:13] Keela Latte: It has to be each individual, I think, taking responsibility for what is right.
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: do you disagree with it xeno?
[19:13] Shwa Quijote: educate them... like real how-to-have-power-over-the-world education... which brings competence, which brings confidence.
[19:13] BrainCrave OHare: but if we want to encourage people keela, how do we do it?
[19:13] Arainel Klossovsky: i think one valid point is what brings esteem to one person may be different for the next
[19:14] Keela Latte: A person has to ask themselves, do I feel good about my place in the world and what I contribute to it?
[19:14] Shwa Quijote: lol xeno... true
[19:14] BrainCrave OHare: agree arainel
[19:14] Randi Grigorovich: i agree
[19:14] Arainel Klossovsky: but if there were a thot put forth to empower individuals
[19:14] Keela Latte: Yes, that's true, but each person can look inside to see their own compass.
[19:14] Arainel Klossovsky: not entities
[19:14] Xeno Octavia: self esteem in a book with psychologists has him confoundeed -----i feel self esteem often a western ego trip ---since most decide to have lo self esteem
[19:14] BrainCrave OHare: i think one of the power failures just hit ana
[19:14] Arainel Klossovsky: you are a step ahead
[19:15] BrainCrave OHare: so xeno, you don't think it's a self-esteem issue?
[19:15] Keela Latte: But the self esteem only serves to help a person stand up for what is right.
[19:15] BrainCrave OHare: if someone has common sense, why believe some of the nonsense we hear?
[19:15] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Is there a non-western concept similar to self esteem
[19:16] Arainel Klossovsky: inner peace perhaps
[19:16] BrainCrave OHare: i'm curious too margaret
[19:16] Priya Dollinger: But most people in the world are to busy just surviving than to thrive & think & fight
[19:16] Randi Grigorovich: common sense to one is idiocy to another
[19:16] MargaretGrace Sapphire: True Randi that may be why we have political parties
[19:16] Xeno Octavia: i think its a human species issue --hompo sap is an alienated species and we need evolve to a healthier intimacyte species
[19:16] BrainCrave OHare: so it sounds like there are a few definitions that might have to be worked on... truth, self-esteem, etc.
[19:17] Shwa Quijote: i think too much emphasis is given to self-esteem... i think it's important for people to achieve something in order to be given a ribbon :P
[19:17] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Inner pease seems like a stronger concept than self esteme
[19:17] Keela Latte: Perhaps courage too.
[19:17] MargaretGrace Sapphire: So does courage
[19:17] Randi Grigorovich: we creat our own reality based on our life and background . my opinion
[19:17] Arainel Klossovsky: even ifwhat is truth, what is self esteem/worth/power?
[19:17] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Self esteme can lead to selfishness
[19:17] BrainCrave OHare: so, if inner-peace helps get us there, how do we create?
[19:18] Xeno Octavia: if u are aware u kno who u are with out the crutch of self [ego] esteem
[19:18] Randi Grigorovich: so what gives peace and self esteem to one may not bring it to another:)
[19:18] BrainCrave OHare: true randi
[19:18] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Is the ego and self esteme a crutch Xeno
[19:18] BrainCrave OHare: can someone define for me what they mean by inner-peace?
[19:18] Keela Latte: The what would give the person the where-with all to stand up against evil, if it's not courage that has been backed my self esteem?
[19:19] Arainel Klossovsky: I agree randi but still the question is.. what would the world/country need to think for themselves instead of being dictated to
[19:19] Keela Latte: *by
[19:19] Xeno Octavia: yes marge
[19:19] Randi Grigorovich: ok
[19:20] phillip1882 Arabello: for inner pease i would say its a state where you are okay with oyur current condition and place i nthe world
[19:20] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Ego may be a factor that drives people in their bad attempts to control others
[19:20] Shwa Quijote: inner peace is the silencing of the conflicting voices... knowing that it's all ok
[19:20] Randi Grigorovich: what do we mean by rthinking for ourselves is the first question
[19:20] Xeno Octavia: inner peace if 'tru' is timeless and spacefless
[19:21] MargaretGrace Sapphire: I would add to Phillips definition the strength to be ok with what ever situation you are in
[19:21] MargaretGrace Sapphire: That takes courage at times
[19:21] BrainCrave OHare: i guess i'm trying to figure out that, if we assume that we agree that demagoguery is always bad and we want to do something about it, what do we do? is there a call to action? is it helping people achieve inner-peace? is it helping people build self-esteem, courage? is it educating?
[19:21] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Shwas's additions are beutiful
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: i am at peace as long as i am true to my inner code of ethis and behaviour. that is my definition of Inner peace.
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: ethics
[19:22] phillip1882 Arabello: yeah i would think education and self essteem would be the primar counters
[19:22] Randi Grigorovich: i meant
[19:22] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Isnt demagoguery opisite to all that Brain suggests
[19:22] BrainCrave OHare: that makes sense randi
[19:22] Xeno Octavia: acdtually Brain most 'activists' are inherent demigogs
[19:23] BrainCrave OHare: but doesn't that mean that all activists lie?
[19:23] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Are they demigogs if driven by a selfless vision
[19:23] BrainCrave OHare: i consider myself an activist, and i don't lie
[19:23] Xeno Octavia: education is training , not learning
[19:23] Shwa Quijote: what xeno said
[19:23] Arainel Klossovsky: maybe the solution is to exile everyone who serves as a politician .. they serve one term but there is a huge price
[19:23] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Activists by definition may be extremists...I too consider myself an activitst
[19:24] Xeno Octavia: brain all people lie
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: so, arainel, if we do that, that just limits it, right?
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: which might be better than it is now
[19:24] Arainel Klossovsky: perhaps we have not placed enough burden on those who wish to govern is all i'm saying
[19:24] phillip1882 Arabello: but nto all the time
[19:24] BrainCrave OHare: i don't xeno
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: i think that's right arainel - so how do we do it?
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: what steps do we take?
[19:25] Xeno Octavia: lol Brain --is that really tru??
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: it is xeno
[19:25] Xeno Octavia: self -examine
[19:25] Arainel Klossovsky: well you can take up arms and do it with violence but I am not in favor of that
[19:25] BrainCrave OHare: i'm not sure that would help arainel
[19:26] Arainel Klossovsky: are you attempt to convince people one by one to think
[19:26] BrainCrave OHare: maybe if i was absolutely convinced it would make a difference, i'd be more supportive of force
[19:26] Shwa Quijote: people should do their political homework and vote when it's election time... elections are decided by a few %, when only half of eligable voters bother to vote. If the other half voted........
[19:26] Arainel Klossovsky: well Brain I am speaking globally..
[19:27] Randi Grigorovich: has any one heard of the theory that societies are living organisms and people are the cells that make up that organzm?
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: i think arainel is right - i think we need to reach out to our close circles of friends and family to help
[19:27] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Yes
[19:27] Arainel Klossovsky: but i'm not advocating violence just offering examples
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: i haven't randi
[19:27] Xeno Octavia: actually shwa elections are controlled by the owners and the dont care who wins the own them both
[19:27] Randi Grigorovich: it goes like this
[19:27] BrainCrave OHare: i understand arainel
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: evey society is created given birth to by the people that compose it
[19:28] Shwa Quijote: both implies democrat/republican dynamic... it's hypothetically possable for other people to get into office
[19:28] MargaretGrace Sapphire: We are people who are like cells making up the larger society. When certain factions get too powerful they over grow like cancer
[19:28] Xeno Octavia: \actually randi that would be a kool evolutionary move but is not so now
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: the people in their self intrest do
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: what is nessascary
[19:28] BrainCrave OHare: i prefer not to think in terms of "society" - i prefer to think in terms of individuals
[19:28] Randi Grigorovich: to keep their particular society
[19:29] Randi Grigorovich: healthy
[19:29] Randi Grigorovich: that is a great simplification
[19:29] Randi Grigorovich: of the theory
[19:29] Shwa Quijote: marg has a point though... humans can't live in a vacuum
[19:29] BrainCrave OHare: right marge and shwa
[19:29] MargaretGrace Sapphire: That actualy was the point Shwa
[19:30] phillip1882 Arabello: i need to head out ,b ut an interestign discussion, thank you
[19:30] Keela Latte: Bye phillip!
[19:30] Arainel Klossovsky: it isn't living in a vacuum but living strong beside one another
[19:30] Randi Grigorovich: i like thias group
[19:30] BrainCrave OHare: i appreciate you all coming and sharing; i hope that when ana comes back online when she gets her power back, you'll thank her for her article and the discussion
[19:30] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Cells are unique but they function in organs that have shared objectives and depend on the metabolic functions of each other
[19:31] Randi Grigorovich: exactly margret
[19:31] Xeno Octavia: in next species a cell nucleus is 30 indivs
[19:31] Randi Grigorovich: every thing and one in a healthy society is interdependent
[19:31] Keela Latte: Ok, so for discussion, if we are cells, what is the method of feeding and exporting waste? That would be global too, right?
[19:31] BrainCrave OHare: lol keela
[19:32] BrainCrave OHare: well, rainel had an idea...
[19:32] MargaretGrace Sapphire: Cells have orgells that do that
[19:32] Xeno Octavia: actually we indivs aren cells --not even chem compounds
[19:32] Randi Grigorovich: in ooklahoma it seems we send our waste to the senate:)
[19:32] MargaretGrace Sapphire: But it depends on the definition of waste and what is considered waste
[19:32] Keela Latte: Haha
[19:32] BrainCrave OHare: and then to the white house!
[19:32] Xeno Octavia: lol
[19:32] BrainCrave OHare: <- from chicago
[19:33] Keela Latte: Lot's of hot air!!! Of course!
[19:33] MargaretGrace Sapphire: LOL
[19:33] Randi Grigorovich: Right Brain:)
[19:33] Randi Grigorovich: Ha ha ha ha - he he he!!! =D
[19:33] Priya Dollinger: Oh let's not talk about our political history Brain - LOL
[19:33] BrainCrave OHare: don't get me started priya
[19:33] BrainCrave OHare: :)
[19:34] Priya Dollinger: We do have a rich source to draw apon for discussions
[19:34] BrainCrave OHare: ok, so i guess that concludes the hour we had; of course, you're all more than welcome to stay and discuss further
[19:34] BrainCrave OHare: and we're always looking for people to write articles to share and then lead a discussion
in Demagoguery
We all admire beauty, but the mind ultimately must be stimulated for maximum arousal. Longevity in relationships cannot occur without a meeting of the minds. And that is what Braincrave is: a dating venue where minds meet. Learn about the thoughts of your potential match on deeper topics... topics that spawn your own insights around what you think, the choices you make, and the actions you take.
We are a community of men and women who seek beauty and stimulation through our minds. We find ideas, education, and self-improvement sexy. We think intelligence is hot. But Braincrave is more than brains and I.Q. alone. We are curious. We have common sense. We value and offer wisdom. We experiment. We have great imaginations. We devour literacy. We are intellectually honest. We support and encourage each other to be better.
You might be lonely but you aren't alone.
Sep, 2017 update: Although Braincrave resulted in two confirmed marriages, the venture didn't meet financial targets. Rather than updating our outdated code base, we've removed all previous dating profiles and retained the articles that continue to generate interest. Moving to valME.io's platform supports dating profiles (which you are welcome to post) but won't allow typical date-matching functionality (e.g., location proximity, attribute similarity).
The Braincrave.com discussion group on Second Life was a twice-daily intellectual group discussions typically held at 12:00 PM SLT (PST) and 7:00 PM SLT. The discussions took place in Second Life group chat but are no longer formally scheduled or managed. The daily articles were used to encourage the discussions.